mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 1, 2022 15:06:19 GMT
I think the Phu Thai girl on the right doesn't really have round eyes, but rather it's a combination of her facial features that make her look Thai not just her eyes. But still I wouldn't so quick to dismiss her as incapable of passing in China, I think she can definitely pass in Yunnan and also in neighboring Far South provinces as well, might be able to pass as a somewhat atypical Sichuanese/Chongqingese even. The Phayao girl and Lucia Liu are clearly different in terms of eyes and facial features, I wouldn't consider them to be very similar TBH. The Phayao girl is clearly Thai-looking (even more so than the Phu Thai girl on the right), and in China I can only see her passing in Yunnan and Guangxi with certainty and maybe able to pass in neighboring Guangdong, Hainan, Guizhou, and Hunan. But Lucia Liu is clearly Chinese and can pass in most provinces of Central/Southern China, maybe in some Northern Chinese provinces even. The man in glasses has a pan-Southern Chinese look, but doesn't really look Korean imho. Nara agrees with me that glasses man in Kheshigten's photo passes as Korean well. Lucia Liu was apparently born in Tianjin but she looks pan-Southern Chinese IMO. This is a photo of some police officers in Seoul she sent me: Come to think of it, the guy could pass as Korean, but would look somewhat atypical. The guy's appearance is pan-Eastern Chinese I would say. I said that Lucia Liu can pass in some Northern Chinese provinces without even knowing her place of birth, seems that my judgements are quite on target. I wouldn't say she has a pan-Southern Chinese look but rather pan-Chinese. And I maintain my opinion that she doesn't really look like the Phayao girl, cause she clearly has some northern features which distinguish her from the rather typical-Thai or MSA (mainland SE Asian) looking Phayao girl. |
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 1, 2022 15:07:18 GMT
Alright so Tai Kadai groups generally appear to have thin-ish limbs, but their proportions may be more "West African" than bulk East Asians. Their shoulders are typically straighter and more protruding, hands/feet bigger, legs longer, more fast twitch etc. Austronesians on the other hand, seem short and wide built, with muscular limbs, long torso and seem oftentimes wideframed.
Cantonese etc might be a mix of these two groups + various sinitic elements. Canto ABCs (well fed and generally physically active) are imo not physically gracile. Many are big framed and like to lift at the gym. I think if you were to equalize height/nutrition/lifestyle, the average Canto person would be wider looking than say the average White Anglosaxon.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 1, 2022 15:14:24 GMT
Alright so Tai Kadai groups generally appear to have thin-ish limbs, but their proportions may be more "West African" than bulk East Asians. Their shoulders are typically straighter and more protruding, hands/feet bigger, legs longer, more fast twitch etc. Austronesians on the other hand, seem short and wide built, with muscular limbs, long torso and seem oftentimes wideframed. Cantonese etc might be a mix of these two groups + various sinitic elements. Canto ABCs (well fed and generally physically active) are imo not physically gracile. Many are big framed and like to lift at the gym. I think if you were to equalize height/nutrition/lifestyle, the average Canto person would be wider looking than say the average White Anglosaxon. I would say the majority of Austronesian groups in SE Asia are quite similar to TK groups in terms of their body build. Certain Austronesian groups from Taiwan might be slightly on the stockier/stronger side, though not by much. Polynesians are the stockiest ones but they're clearly the outlier among Austronesians. IMO non-genetic factors like nutrition, environment, etc. can also play a quite important role. |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 1, 2022 15:18:41 GMT
I would say the majority of Austronesian groups in SE Asia are quite similar to TK groups in terms of their body build. Certain Austronesian groups from Taiwan might be slightly on the stockier/stronger side, though not by much. Polynesians are the stockiest ones but they're clearly the outlier among Austronesians. IMO non-genetic factors like nutrition, environment, etc. can also play a quite important role. Honestly, Polynesians might be among the lankiest Austronesians lol |
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 1, 2022 15:19:49 GMT
Depending on the angle taken, one can get very different impressions. This is a much better front photo of He Zi, we can see that her calves or lower legs are actually quite thin, and definitely aren't more muscular than the Mongolian wrestler you showed. He Zi's muscles are very "rounded" compared to the Mongol girl, who despite being muscular (for obvious reasons) still doesn't show as much limb muscle protrusion as He Zi Whatever dude, if you would like to believe that Far South Chinese are hyper muscular and hyper big-framed then it's your choice I'm not here to convince you, continue to live in your dream world. And also maybe you should open up a rice plantation and hire "slim and skinny" Boke wrestlers as your planters. |
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 1, 2022 15:30:09 GMT
Speaking of lifestyle and foods, it honestly seems like a significant factor. Based on my recollections, many rural Cantonese types in Guangdong tend to be this robust square pheno with wide cheekbones and large deep set eyes, but high school urban students are oftentimes this small eyed small round faced pheno. Chinese people today lack exercise compared to the older generation and phenotype seems to have changed a bit from say 10-20 years ago.
With North China, I noticed this thing; old people oftentimes narrow long faced, but middle aged face is wider. Then with zoomers...you have the similar face shrinkage + smaller eyes thing going on.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 1, 2022 15:34:27 GMT
Some young farmer from Xuwen Guangdong. What is this pheno? These phenos seem to be decreasing in quantity today, and are seldom seen on say top universty/high school students, who now all have this undergrown nerd pheno. imgur.com/ghHgO4m |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 1, 2022 16:41:37 GMT
And also maybe you should open up a rice plantation and hire "slim and skinny" Boke wrestlers as your planters. Why would I do that? Their legs are too long, and can't efficiently squat down, pick up boxes, etc. |
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 1, 2022 18:01:25 GMT
Speaking of lifestyle and foods, it honestly seems like a significant factor. Based on my recollections, many rural Cantonese types in Guangdong tend to be this robust square pheno with wide cheekbones and large deep set eyes, but high school urban students are oftentimes this small eyed small round faced pheno. Chinese people today lack exercise compared to the older generation and phenotype seems to have changed a bit from say 10-20 years ago. With North China, I noticed this thing; old people oftentimes narrow long faced, but middle aged face is wider. Then with zoomers...you have the similar face shrinkage + smaller eyes thing going on. LOL I've probably seen and known a lot more people than you do from Western GD and GX, and really none of them appears robust or stocky, quite the contrary I would say they're rather lanky and slim. Large deep-set eyes yes, but robust square pheno with wide cheekbones definitely not the case. I'd say that Hokkien people as well as people from certain regions of Central China like Henan, Anhui, or Hubei have a much higher chance of having robust square pheno than people from Western GD and GX who tend to be more Daic-like. This composite photo of Guangdong people (the author said he used no less than 100 samples for both men and women to make the composite) quite accurately describes my impression about the Cantonese speakers from Western GD and GX.  The urban students from Pearl River Delta that you're talking about are probably descendants of migrants from other regions of China. |
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jul 1, 2022 19:54:22 GMT
Alright so Tai Kadai groups generally appear to have thin-ish limbs, but their proportions may be more "West African" than bulk East Asians. Their shoulders are typically straighter and more protruding, hands/feet bigger, legs longer, more fast twitch etc. Austronesians on the other hand, seem short and wide built, with muscular limbs, long torso and seem oftentimes wideframed. Cantonese etc might be a mix of these two groups + various sinitic elements. Canto ABCs (well fed and generally physically active) are imo not physically gracile. Many are big framed and like to lift at the gym. I think if you were to equalize height/nutrition/lifestyle, the average Canto person would be wider looking than say the average White Anglosaxon. What "type" would Chinese Malaysian dancer/entertainer Dennis Yin be? He's very Canto looking IMO, and Yin sounds like Cantonese romanization Same with this Chinese American expat living in Thailand. Does he look more "Daic" or "Austronesian"? How about this Chinese Malaysian who says (some of) his grandparents were Hainanese and Hakka? He has a very Sudsinid body type Or Wesley Chan and Julie Zhan? I'm guessing Naomi "SexyCyborg" Wu has more of the "Daic" body type? Also I completely agree with what throway said about Bat-Ochiryn Bolortuyaa and He Zi. |
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jul 1, 2022 19:57:37 GMT
I think the Phu Thai girl on the right doesn't really have round eyes, but rather it's a combination of her facial features that make her look Thai not just her eyes. But still I wouldn't so quick to dismiss her as incapable of passing in China, I think she can definitely pass in Yunnan and also in neighboring Far South provinces as well, might be able to pass as a somewhat atypical Sichuanese/Chongqingese even. The Phayao girl and Lucia Liu are clearly different in terms of eyes and facial features, I wouldn't consider them to be very similar TBH. The Phayao girl is clearly Thai-looking (even more so than the Phu Thai girl on the right), and in China I can only see her passing in Yunnan and Guangxi with certainty and maybe able to pass in neighboring Guangdong, Hainan, Guizhou, and Hunan. But Lucia Liu is clearly Chinese and can pass in most provinces of Central/Southern China, maybe in some Northern Chinese provinces even. The man in glasses has a pan-Southern Chinese look, but doesn't really look Korean imho. Nara agrees with me that glasses man in Kheshigten's photo passes as Korean well. Lucia Liu was apparently born in Tianjin but she looks pan-Southern Chinese IMO. This is a photo of some police officers in Seoul she sent me: Nara isn't in Asianspace right? Is she in Quora or reddit? That's interesting that she thinks he looks Korean. I wonder if he is Khon Mueang (a local name that Northern Thais call themselves), other Tai group of Northern Thailand or has Chinese ancestry? Because there's Chinese migration and admixture in Northern Thailand as well, just not as much as in the Central Plains/Central region of Thailand (Bangkok and neighboring provinces has the most Chinese ancestry I believe), Eastern and Southern Thailand (there's lots of Han Chinese migrants and settlers from Southern China as well). |
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jul 1, 2022 20:04:37 GMT
You think the girl on the right have big round eyes? I don't think its "Hoabinhian" phenotype because that would resemble Onge/Jarawa aka Negrito influence more. "Austroasiatic" influence is probably more accurate to describe the size and shape of her eyes. I see. Well the Phu Thai as well many Northern Thai and Lao of Laos/Northern Isaan (referring to the individuals I PM you) seem to substantial Austroasiatic admixture compared to Kinh/Viets based on G25 analyses I run on them despite the latter speaking an Austroasiatic language. That could be why they look different from actual Viets you encountered. I will post some of the models I run on them later. I understand what you mean with the "Thai plastic surgery-oid look". Off topic do you know any Vietnamese Anthroforum users who we can invite to this forum? I want to also see their opinions regarding Tai-Kradai including Northern Thais and Lao phenotypes. How about this girl? She is from Phayao in Northern Thailand which means predominantly Dai/Tai-Kradai genes. Two of the Northern Thai gedmatch samples come from this province: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phayao_provinceCan she pass in Vietnam or Southern China? mnopsc1b i.imgur.com/WGqEKiS.jpgi.imgur.com/UKTluFn.jpgi.imgur.com/gzxMFpf.jpgi.imgur.com/w3poFyI.jpg (can the guy handling her the money in the last two pics pass as Viet or Southern Chinese?) i.imgur.com/Mg5xkNN.jpgTo my knowledge redwine already has an account here and SailorNeptune disappeared from the pop anthropology scene sometime before Anthroscape got shut down. I think she can pass as Viet, Lingnan Han probably isn't too out of the question either. But I would not guess her as either ethnicity as my first choice if you asked me to guess her ancestry. Eyes are too round and somehow shaped differently from what rounder eyed Viets have. Her chin shape reminds me of one of the "ugly" Thai models/actresses Alexey12 from Anthroscape used to post a lot. Your young woman from Phayao is quite striking though. She reminds me a bit of SoCal-based dancer Lucia Liu: www.imdb.com/name/nm7860872/ The man in the glasses can pass as pan-Southern Han fairly well IMO. He can also pass as a more southern-shifted Korean. Can someone invite Redwine back here? I think I saw SailorNeptune on Amazians (a Filipino centered forum) but she wasn't that active. There's also Dat and Ngo Huy from back when there was Eastbound88 forum (another Asian forum although its general topics and not specifically towards anthrostuff) but you probably don't know them. Interesting. Does she look more northern-shifted than most Northern Thais that I have posted or shown you in PM? What would you guess her ethnicity to be if I didn't tell you she was from Thailand? I see. I wonder if the man is of local Tai origins or he has recent Chinese blood in him to cause such pan-Southern Han or more southern-shifted Korean looks? |
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 1, 2022 20:17:49 GMT
Alright so Tai Kadai groups generally appear to have thin-ish limbs, but their proportions may be more "West African" than bulk East Asians. Their shoulders are typically straighter and more protruding, hands/feet bigger, legs longer, more fast twitch etc. Austronesians on the other hand, seem short and wide built, with muscular limbs, long torso and seem oftentimes wideframed. Cantonese etc might be a mix of these two groups + various sinitic elements. Canto ABCs (well fed and generally physically active) are imo not physically gracile. Many are big framed and like to lift at the gym. I think if you were to equalize height/nutrition/lifestyle, the average Canto person would be wider looking than say the average White Anglosaxon. Also I completely agree with what throway said about Bat-Ochiryn Bolortuyaa and He Zi. Well, he only showed one photo of the Mongolian wrestler and I'm afraid we can't say much from just one photo. I showed a front photo of He Zi and she's quite thin and slim and I really don't think she has thick calves. And if you know anything about diving then you should be aware that being stocky and having a bigger frame are not advantageous for this sport. Again you and throway2 can believe whatever you like I'm not here to convince you, but I feel you guys really need some reality check. And I don't think Canto-Americans are necessarily a good representation of Cantonese in general, cause a lot of Canto ABCs have other admixtures, the most famous examples being Fung Bros who have Shandong and Shanghai admixtures and Awkwafina who has Korean and Beijing admixtures. Same thing for Malaysian Chinese, who are mostly of Hokkien descent from what I know. |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 2, 2022 0:32:46 GMT
 Is this type of Thai phenotype (boy on right) structurally similar to this type of phenotype (common in Shanxi/northwestern China and Tibeto-Burmans):  imgur.com/a/YXltWTG(a Shanxi farmer) imgur.com/a/qZyd5PD(an Amdo Tibetan boy) Though more "SEA" shifted of course. But in morphology I feel some degree of continuity here... |
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 2, 2022 1:11:09 GMT
Speaking of lifestyle and foods, it honestly seems like a significant factor. Based on my recollections, many rural Cantonese types in Guangdong tend to be this robust square pheno with wide cheekbones and large deep set eyes, but high school urban students are oftentimes this small eyed small round faced pheno. Chinese people today lack exercise compared to the older generation and phenotype seems to have changed a bit from say 10-20 years ago. With North China, I noticed this thing; old people oftentimes narrow long faced, but middle aged face is wider. Then with zoomers...you have the similar face shrinkage + smaller eyes thing going on. LOL I've probably seen and known a lot more people than you do from Western GD and GX, and really none of them appears robust or stocky, quite the contrary I would say they're rather lanky and slim. Large deep-set eyes yes, but robust square pheno with wide cheekbones definitely not the case. I'd say that Hokkien people as well as people from certain regions of Central China like Henan, Anhui, or Hubei have a much higher chance of having robust square pheno than people from Western GD and GX who tend to be more Daic-like. This composite photo of Guangdong people (the author said he used no less than 100 samples for both men and women to make the composite) quite accurately describes my impression about the Cantonese speakers from Western GD and GX. The urban students from Pearl River Delta that you're talking about are probably descendants of migrants from other regions of China. Imo there is definitely a certain proportion of those phenos that I described in street/rural Guangdong. They just don't show up in Canada much, as intl Chinese students are gracile and don't range much. I think robustness is mostly similar in most populations if you equalize lifestyle, exercise and nutrition. There is a distinct robust Canto type (big cheekbones and very angular features) along with a gracile pheno, similar to Wes. |
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