shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 17, 2023 17:16:23 GMT
This Tsou woman I posted earlier might pass as Igorot, but she also has distinct northern AN features like aquiline nose, somewhat higher-set eyebrows compared to continental SEAs/even many EAs, flatter cheekbones, etc. She looks sort of Caucasoid admixed due to the aquiline nose and rounder eyes, interestingly enough. Is it possible some Taiwanese Aboriginals have Jomon/Ainu-related ancestry that can gives this pseudo Caucasoid appearance besides any slight Upper Yellow River or Boshan/Bianbian-shifted affinity? But I heard that some Taiwanese Aborigines might have Dutch admixture as well which maybe this woman could have minor Euro? I have a former classmate in my masters, who was an aboriginal from Taiwan and he told me that he is aroudn 1/8 Dutch and that one of his grandparents look Euro admixed. The classmate resembles a Chinese or Taiwanese celebrity with Caucasoid-like features; having high nose bridge, narrower face and bigger eyes. |
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 17, 2023 17:21:06 GMT
Interesting. Can you post pics to demonstrate what this "ukiyo e-painting" esque aspect look like? Btw I heard that Igorots of the Northern Phils are even purer Austronesian than Taiwanese Aborigines, the latter who seem to have some more "northern"-related input. I have some collections of TW aboriginal students though too lazy to upload all of them rn; I might do that later TW aborigines seem to be slightly Boshan/Bianbian or even Upper Yellow River shifted compared to Igorots, but I am not sure if we can conclude this is due to Igorots being admixed with something particular to the Phillipines or TW aborigines being admixed with something from a later component from EA based off of genetics. But I did notice that many Igorot rural students I collected looked surprisingly different from TW aborigines despite their close genetic distance. TW aborigine youth seem to consistently have narrow faces and aquiline noses nowadays, while some Igorots had broader faces and a shorter midface/nose   This is an Atayal woman that IMO doesn't pass in the northern Philippines very well, but is a decently common phenotype in some TW aboriginal subgroups I C. You are right, we cannot be certain yet if it is from Igorots being admixed with some local Philippine-related stuff or the aborigines having additional EA ancestry. Maybe the difference in their looks might be due to the fact that TW Aborigines might carry some Jomon/Ainu-like ancestry in their DNA as well besides the plausible additional Yellow River/Bianbian-Boshan stuff? Do those Taiwanese Aborigine youth look East Asian or Han Chinese admixed or do they look typical SE Asian but with more sharper, "progressive" features? |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 17, 2023 19:22:08 GMT
I C. You are right, we cannot be certain yet if it is from Igorots being admixed with some local Philippine-related stuff or the aborigines having additional EA ancestry. Maybe the difference in their looks might be due to the fact that TW Aborigines might carry some Jomon/Ainu-like ancestry in their DNA as well besides the plausible additional Yellow River/Bianbian-Boshan stuff? Do those Taiwanese Aborigine youth look East Asian or Han Chinese admixed or do they look typical SE Asian but with more sharper, "progressive" features? They tend to look in between some type of stereotypical "Yakonin" and more "progressive" Luzon/Igorot types. The EA looking ones don't look a lot like the Chinese types you'd expect them to be more admixed with- there are some clear feature differences I don't think it's Jomon- Jomon skull shapes are very different. But rather some sort of affinity to neolithic agrarians who lived in certain coastal EA communities. |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 17, 2023 20:23:42 GMT
These all have a slight pseudo Japanese-ish or "Satsuma" vibe that's common in Fujianese. This is lacking in NW Han and Tibeto-burmans. |
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 17, 2023 23:57:39 GMT
Yet on the PCA chart the Thais are not eastern-shifted at all, they're clustered in the same region as the Wa and the Cambodians. I think this can be explained by having less admixtures with Tibeto-Burmans? And I notice that bushy eyebrows that are closely set to the eyes as well as larger eyes with high frequency of double eyelids are the essential Tai-Kradai features and can be found among various Tai-Kradai and Tai-Kradai influenced peoples (such as Far South Chinese). I see no problem for these three Thai individuals to pass as Dai or Tai Lue in Yunnan, and they may pass as Zhuang or Far South Chinese in GX as well. Interesting, I would have thought the two girls look too Austroasiatic admixed (not their skin color but I feel some Mon-Khmer influences from their facial features) to pass among those Tai-Kadai groups in Yunnan or Guangxi. Maybe I'm not that well versed myself in Tai-Kradai phenotypes ironically, but most of the Northern Thais (including a few Tai Lue), Laotians/Northern-Central Isaan and some Shan/Tai Yai (Tai ethnic group from Northeastern Myanmar) I have met have a vaguely generic "East Asian-ish" or Kinh/Vietnamese appearance and thus look "more northern-shifted" than these two Thai girls here. And these groups I listed are genetically predominantly to pure Tai-Kradai and thus cluster close to the Dai, Zhuang, Gelao and other Tais of Southern China. In the case of Shan, they may have some Tibeto-Burman ancestry due to their close geographical proximity to Sino-Tibetan ethnic groups such as Kachin, Lisu, Akha, etc, which might explain why many Shan can have "East Asian-ish" looks. Trust me the two Thai girls remind me a lot of my Yunnan and GX acquaintances. The left girl is 90% similar to a Tai Lue girl I know from Sipsong Panna, except the girl I know is a bit thinner, taller, and also somewhat darker than her. The girl in the middle remind me of several of my GX acquaintances. Her features are rather common in that region. IMO the guy on the right is probably the most distinctly Thai looking person out of the three, although I can see him passing in Yunnan and GX as well, especially GX. The Zhuang guy from Bilibili I posted earlier looks a bit similar to him. I'm not sure why you think that fellow Tai-Kradai peoples from YN and GX cannot pass in Thailand. If you consider those Shaanxi individuals as passable then there's no way YN and GX peoples cannot pass, if anything they should have an even higher chance of passing in Thailand. In most cases, I don't feel that Tai Lue and Zhuang necessarily look more northern-shifted than Thai, sure their skin color may be somewhat lighter (though some of them can have a darker complexion similar to native Thai as well), but most of their features are still undeniably southern. |
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 18, 2023 0:04:20 GMT
They can all pass in Thailand imo. First and fourth persons can easily pass as "local" Thais without Chinese blood. There are actually many "pure" Thais who can have lighter skin and totally lack Sinitic admixture. Second, third and fifth can pass as Sino-Thais or Chinese descendants who are culturally and linguistically Thaified/assimilated and integrated. Sixth has a rather unique look but if he can speak Standard Thai fairly well and dress like a local, no one would think he is a foreigner as well. The sixth guy might look more similar to these burmese Wa kids imgur.com/a/Nl09tIothough I suspect he might also pass in Mongolia These Burmese Wa kids likely have very high Tibeto-Burman admixtures and hence aren't suitable to be seen as representatives of Austroasiatic people. Why don't you take a look at the Mon girls photo that I posted earlier? They don't look Tibeto-Burman or Shaanxi at all. |
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 18, 2023 0:17:51 GMT
IMO as counterintuitive as this might sound— Northwest Han, especially from central/southern Shaanxi, southeastern Gansu might pass better as Austroasiatic or heavily Austroasiatic-influenced Tai-Kradai than as Tai-Kradai proper (eg. Dai, Zhuang, Viet) even though the latter are technically more “northern”. I think this is because Austronesians have unique looks which aren’t shared with southern-shifted NW Han (rather, they are morphologically more like some Jiangsu and even Shandong, Japanese people…) Additionally, some Dai/Zhuang/Viet people seem to be shifted in the direction of some phenos that actually peak in eastern Cantonese and lowland Hunanese which should not be grouped with mainstream western Austroasiatics. It seems that TK proper populations have a unique blend of these components: Austroasiatic/western SEA-like, Austronesian, eastern SEA/Guangdong-like which could cause distinct combinations like Austronesian features (eg. bushy eyebrow, bigger eyes) but with more compact midface and lower brow etc. Nope, TK people from Far South China don't look like eastern Guangdong or eastern Hunan people that much, those two have obvious Sinitic admixtures that would often make them look more northern than TK people. TK proper looks like Western Cantonese and GX people the most, followed by certain Western Austronesians (Jarai, Dusun, Murut, Malays, Javanese, etc.). For some reason I don't feel they resemble TW aborigines or other Eastern Austronesians that much (Igorots, Micronesians, Polynesians, etc.). I think there were probably many Austronesian or Quasi-Austronesian groups spread along the southeastern coast of China from Fujian to GX once upon a time, and TW aborigines / Igorots descend mostly from the eastern Fujian groups whereas TK and some other Western Austronesian groups I listed above descend from the western GD/GX groups. Jarai man and woman  Dusun women  Javanese man and woman  |
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 18, 2023 0:32:52 GMT
IMO as counterintuitive as this might sound— Northwest Han, especially from central/southern Shaanxi, southeastern Gansu might pass better as Austroasiatic or heavily Austroasiatic-influenced Tai-Kradai than as Tai-Kradai proper (eg. Dai, Zhuang, Viet) even though the latter are technically more “northern”. Nope, they could only pass as heavily Tibeto-Burman admixed Austroasiatic tribes. Those that are less admixed with Tibeto-Burmans such as Mon-Khmers or Bahnars don't look anything like Northwestern Han. And TK populations no matter those in SE Asia or in Far South China don't really give me Shaanxi or Gansu vibes. And also TK peoples aren't more northern-shifted than northern Austroasiatic peoples like Wa or Blang, they're on a similar level of southern-ness, if not slightly more southern than Wa/Blang/Lawa.  |
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 18, 2023 0:36:15 GMT
Another thing I would like to add— Taiwanese aborigine youth (as a representative of a “purer” Austronesian group) actually have fairly high eyebrows often. It tends to end up looking weirdly “ukiyo-e painting” esque especially paired with their typical beak nose and closeset eyes. A lot of TW aborigine youth these days probably have a lot of Sinitic admixtures, hence they aren't the best representatives of a "purer" Austronesian group. |
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 18, 2023 0:40:11 GMT
@throway I see some structural similarities between this Thai man and certain Hebeiren - of course, the Thai man has the typical deeper set eyes with bigger eyes, and the face is set lower on the face (i.e., a smaller face). But are these features what you consider "austronesian"? What even are actual "austronesian" features?   By the way, @mnops and all - it is me "Nara" (I just had to sign up again because I completely lost access to my old account). Hope all has been well with you all. Hello Nara, how's everything going? Long time no see. I have to disagree with you, I don't think this Hebei guy you posted resembles that Thai guy at all. Their eye region and facial structure are clearly different. |
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 18, 2023 0:42:12 GMT
Interesting. Can you post pics to demonstrate what this "ukiyo e-painting" esque aspect look like? Btw I heard that Igorots of the Northern Phils are even purer Austronesian than Taiwanese Aborigines, the latter who seem to have some more "northern"-related input. I have some collections of TW aboriginal students though too lazy to upload all of them rn; I might do that later TW aborigines seem to be slightly Boshan/Bianbian or even Upper Yellow River shifted compared to Igorots, but I am not sure if we can conclude this is due to Igorots being admixed with something particular to the Phillipines or TW aborigines being admixed with something from a later component from EA based off of genetics. But I did notice that many Igorot rural students I collected looked surprisingly different from TW aborigines despite their close genetic distance. TW aborigine youth seem to consistently have narrow faces and aquiline noses nowadays, while some Igorots had broader faces and a shorter midface/nose This is an Atayal woman that IMO doesn't pass in the northern Philippines very well, but is a decently common phenotype in some TW aboriginal subgroups Could be due to some residual Dutch admixtures. |
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 18, 2023 0:49:58 GMT
I have some collections of TW aboriginal students though too lazy to upload all of them rn; I might do that later TW aborigines seem to be slightly Boshan/Bianbian or even Upper Yellow River shifted compared to Igorots, but I am not sure if we can conclude this is due to Igorots being admixed with something particular to the Phillipines or TW aborigines being admixed with something from a later component from EA based off of genetics. But I did notice that many Igorot rural students I collected looked surprisingly different from TW aborigines despite their close genetic distance. TW aborigine youth seem to consistently have narrow faces and aquiline noses nowadays, while some Igorots had broader faces and a shorter midface/nose This is an Atayal woman that IMO doesn't pass in the northern Philippines very well, but is a decently common phenotype in some TW aboriginal subgroups Could be due to some residual Dutch admixtures. This middle aged Tsou lady looks more Dutch admixed than that Atayal middle aged woman imo: |
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 18, 2023 0:51:37 GMT
IMO as counterintuitive as this might sound— Northwest Han, especially from central/southern Shaanxi, southeastern Gansu might pass better as Austroasiatic or heavily Austroasiatic-influenced Tai-Kradai than as Tai-Kradai proper (eg. Dai, Zhuang, Viet) even though the latter are technically more “northern”. Nope, they could only pass as heavily Tibeto-Burman admixed Austroasiatic tribes. Those that are less admixed with Tibeto-Burmans such as Mon-Khmers or Bahnars don't look anything like Northwestern Han. And TK populations no matter those in SE Asia or in Far South China don't really give me Shaanxi or Gansu vibes. And also TK peoples aren't more northern-shifted than northern Austroasiatic peoples like Wa or Blang, they're on a similar level of southern-ness, if not slightly more southern than Wa/Blang/Lawa. Where are the Austronesians (Mentawai, Dusun, TW Aborigines, Nias, Igorot, Murut etc) in the plot? |
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 18, 2023 0:57:50 GMT
IMO as counterintuitive as this might sound— Northwest Han, especially from central/southern Shaanxi, southeastern Gansu might pass better as Austroasiatic or heavily Austroasiatic-influenced Tai-Kradai than as Tai-Kradai proper (eg. Dai, Zhuang, Viet) even though the latter are technically more “northern”. I think this is because Austronesians have unique looks which aren’t shared with southern-shifted NW Han (rather, they are morphologically more like some Jiangsu and even Shandong, Japanese people…) Additionally, some Dai/Zhuang/Viet people seem to be shifted in the direction of some phenos that actually peak in eastern Cantonese and lowland Hunanese which should not be grouped with mainstream western Austroasiatics. It seems that TK proper populations have a unique blend of these components: Austroasiatic/western SEA-like, Austronesian, eastern SEA/Guangdong-like which could cause distinct combinations like Austronesian features (eg. bushy eyebrow, bigger eyes) but with more compact midface and lower brow etc. Nope, TK people from Far South China don't look like eastern Guangdong or eastern Hunan people that much, those two have obvious Sinitic admixtures that would often make them look more northern than TK people. TK proper looks like Western Cantonese and GX people the most, followed by certain Western Austronesians (Jarai, Dusun, Murut, Malays, Javanese, etc.). For some reason I don't feel they resemble TW aborigines or other Eastern Austronesians that much (Igorots, Micronesians, Polynesians, etc.). I think there were probably many Austronesian or Quasi-Austronesian groups spread along the southeastern coast of China from Fujian to GX once upon a time, and TW aborigines / Igorots descend mostly from the eastern Fujian groups whereas TK and some other Western Austronesian groups I listed above descend from the western GD/GX groups. Jarai man and woman Dusun women Javanese man and woman What are the factors that could make TW Aborigines, Igorots and other Eastern Austronesians look different from TK or Western Austronesians? Btw, the Dusun, Murut are genetically much closer to TW Aborigines and Igorots than to other Western Austronesians btw due to the former being predominantly Austronesian genetically unlike others who are much more Austroasiatic-shifted. |
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 18, 2023 1:18:47 GMT
Nope, they could only pass as heavily Tibeto-Burman admixed Austroasiatic tribes. Those that are less admixed with Tibeto-Burmans such as Mon-Khmers or Bahnars don't look anything like Northwestern Han. And TK populations no matter those in SE Asia or in Far South China don't really give me Shaanxi or Gansu vibes. And also TK peoples aren't more northern-shifted than northern Austroasiatic peoples like Wa or Blang, they're on a similar level of southern-ness, if not slightly more southern than Wa/Blang/Lawa. Where are the Austronesians (Mentawai, Dusun, TW Aborigines, Nias, Igorot, Murut etc) in the plot? The larger picture with all East and SE Asian populations on it is here, though the labels are barely visible  |
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