mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 17, 2023 13:17:29 GMT
 Another thing is that Thais like eg. right absolutely do not pass in NW China. Somehow their facial structure might actually be more distal than those Austroasiatic hill tribes. I suspect this is due to having different components (direct Austronesian, maybe some sort of more eastern HG) which aren't found much in NW Chinese Yet on the PCA chart the Thais are not eastern-shifted at all, they're clustered in the same region as the Wa and the Cambodians. I think this can be explained by having less admixtures with Tibeto-Burmans? And I notice that bushy eyebrows that are closely set to the eyes as well as larger eyes with high frequency of double eyelids are the essential Tai-Kradai features and can be found among various Tai-Kradai and Tai-Kradai influenced peoples (such as Far South Chinese). I see no problem for these three Thai individuals to pass as Dai or Tai Lue in Yunnan, and they may pass as Zhuang or Far South Chinese in GX as well. |
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 17, 2023 14:30:48 GMT
shirvanshah Here are some selected Xi'an/Shaanxi street people In your opinion, could they pass in Thailand?       Please compare not their aesthetics (eg. skin, styling etc.) but their baseline facial morphology to the Mlabri people in that picture. Do you see what I mean by facial structure adjacency? Ie. if you took some of those Mlabri, actually fed them well, raised them with better dental care, and not in the wilderness, they could potentially look rather similar? They can all pass in Thailand imo. First and fourth persons can easily pass as "local" Thais without Chinese blood. There are actually many "pure" Thais who can have lighter skin and totally lack Sinitic admixture. Second, third and fifth can pass as Sino-Thais or Chinese descendants who are culturally and linguistically Thaified/assimilated and integrated. Sixth has a rather unique look but if he can speak Standard Thai fairly well and dress like a local, no one would think he is a foreigner as well. |
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 17, 2023 14:37:09 GMT
Another thing is that Thais like eg. right absolutely do not pass in NW China. Somehow their facial structure might actually be more distal than those Austroasiatic hill tribes. I suspect this is due to having different components (direct Austronesian, maybe some sort of more eastern HG) which aren't found much in NW Chinese Yet on the PCA chart the Thais are not eastern-shifted at all, they're clustered in the same region as the Wa and the Cambodians. I think this can be explained by having less admixtures with Tibeto-Burmans? And I notice that bushy eyebrows that are closely set to the eyes as well as larger eyes with high frequency of double eyelids are the essential Tai-Kradai features and can be found among various Tai-Kradai and Tai-Kradai influenced peoples (such as Far South Chinese). I see no problem for these three Thai individuals to pass as Dai or Tai Lue in Yunnan, and they may pass as Zhuang or Far South Chinese in GX as well. Interesting, I would have thought the two girls look too Austroasiatic admixed (not their skin color but I feel some Mon-Khmer influences from their facial features) to pass among those Tai-Kadai groups in Yunnan or Guangxi. Maybe I'm not that well versed myself in Tai-Kradai phenotypes ironically, but most of the Northern Thais (including a few Tai Lue), Laotians/Northern-Central Isaan and some Shan/Tai Yai (Tai ethnic group from Northeastern Myanmar) I have met have a vaguely generic "East Asian-ish" or Kinh/Vietnamese appearance and thus look "more northern-shifted" than these two Thai girls here. And these groups I listed are genetically predominantly to pure Tai-Kradai and thus cluster close to the Dai, Zhuang, Gelao and other Tais of Southern China. In the case of Shan, they may have some Tibeto-Burman ancestry due to their close geographical proximity to Sino-Tibetan ethnic groups such as Kachin, Lisu, Akha, etc, which might explain why many Shan can have "East Asian-ish" looks. |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 17, 2023 14:54:38 GMT
They can all pass in Thailand imo. First and fourth persons can easily pass as "local" Thais without Chinese blood. There are actually many "pure" Thais who can have lighter skin and totally lack Sinitic admixture. Second, third and fifth can pass as Sino-Thais or Chinese descendants who are culturally and linguistically Thaified/assimilated and integrated. Sixth has a rather unique look but if he can speak Standard Thai fairly well and dress like a local, no one would think he is a foreigner as well. The sixth guy might look more similar to these burmese Wa kids imgur.com/a/Nl09tIothough I suspect he might also pass in Mongolia |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 17, 2023 15:02:38 GMT
IMO as counterintuitive as this might sound— Northwest Han, especially from central/southern Shaanxi, southeastern Gansu might pass better as Austroasiatic or heavily Austroasiatic-influenced Tai-Kradai than as Tai-Kradai proper (eg. Dai, Zhuang, Viet) even though the latter are technically more “northern”.
I think this is because Austronesians have unique looks which aren’t shared with southern-shifted NW Han (rather, they are morphologically more like some Jiangsu and even Shandong, Japanese people…) Additionally, some Dai/Zhuang/Viet people seem to be shifted in the direction of some phenos that actually peak in eastern Cantonese and lowland Hunanese which should not be grouped with mainstream western Austroasiatics.
It seems that TK proper populations have a unique blend of these components: Austroasiatic/western SEA-like, Austronesian, eastern SEA/Guangdong-like which could cause distinct combinations like Austronesian features (eg. bushy eyebrow, bigger eyes) but with more compact midface and lower brow etc.
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 17, 2023 15:02:49 GMT
They can all pass in Thailand imo. First and fourth persons can easily pass as "local" Thais without Chinese blood. There are actually many "pure" Thais who can have lighter skin and totally lack Sinitic admixture. Second, third and fifth can pass as Sino-Thais or Chinese descendants who are culturally and linguistically Thaified/assimilated and integrated. Sixth has a rather unique look but if he can speak Standard Thai fairly well and dress like a local, no one would think he is a foreigner as well. The sixth guy might look more similar to these burmese Wa kids imgur.com/a/Nl09tIothough I suspect he might also pass in Mongolia Maybe but I'm not sure. You can easily the average 39% Upper Yellow River/Qiang-like admixture in the phenotype of these kids except the small one on the right who looks more generic SE Asian. |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 17, 2023 15:12:36 GMT
The sixth guy might look more similar to these burmese Wa kids imgur.com/a/Nl09tIothough I suspect he might also pass in Mongolia Maybe but I'm not sure. You can easily the average 39% Upper Yellow River/Qiang-like admixture in the phenotype of these kids except the small one on the right who looks more generic SE Asian. I don’t perceive their faces as “specifically Tibeto-burman” though… isn’t it possible to sometimes find them among “purer” Austroasiatic groups like Mlabri? i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-hEAAOSwyQtV6GRS/s-l1600.jpgLike this Mlabri isn’t far off. She also looks malnourished and might look even closer if fed well. i0.wp.com/www.chiangmai-alacarte.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Lawa-women8.jpg?fit=1000%2C600&ssl=1Something like left Lawa person I perceive as more particularly TB though. There is a distinct nose area and maybe slightly higher eyebrows. |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 17, 2023 15:18:12 GMT
Another thing I would like to add—
Taiwanese aborigine youth (as a representative of a “purer” Austronesian group) actually have fairly high eyebrows often. It tends to end up looking weirdly “ukiyo-e painting” esque especially paired with their typical beak nose and closeset eyes.
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 17, 2023 15:18:37 GMT
Dunno but I feel those kids (except the small one on the right) still look more northern-shifted than that Mlabri picture posted. Lawa themselves have significant Tibeto-Burman admixture in similar proportions to the Wa, Blang and Karenic (who despite speaking Tibeto-Burman languages are genetically mostly Austroasiatic with high Qiang-related input as represented by the Sgaw subgroup in G25) tribes. Actually even the Mon, who are Austroasiatic, have substantial Tibeto-Burman ancestry as well, but they probably received it from mixing with the Bamar/Burmese. |
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 17, 2023 15:35:36 GMT
Another thing I would like to add— Taiwanese aborigine youth (as a representative of a “purer” Austronesian group) actually have fairly high eyebrows often. It tends to end up looking weirdly “ukiyo-e painting” esque especially paired with their typical beak nose and closeset eyes. Interesting. Can you post pics to demonstrate what this "ukiyo e-painting" esque aspect look like? Btw I heard that Igorots of the Northern Phils are even purer Austronesian than Taiwanese Aborigines, the latter who seem to have some more "northern"-related input. |
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onara
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Post by onara on Apr 17, 2023 16:02:46 GMT
@throway I see some structural similarities between this Thai man and certain Hebeiren - of course, the Thai man has the typical deeper set eyes with bigger eyes, and the face is set lower on the face (i.e., a smaller face). But are these features what you consider "austronesian"? What even are actual "austronesian" features?  By the way, @mnops and all - it is me "Nara" (I just had to sign up again because I completely lost access to my old account). Hope all has been well with you all. |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 17, 2023 16:21:17 GMT
@throway I see some structural similarities between this Thai man and certain Hebeiren - of course, the Thai man has the typical deeper set eyes with bigger eyes, and the face is set lower on the face (i.e., a smaller face). But are these features what you consider "austronesian"? What even are actual "austronesian" features? By the way, @mnops and all - it is me "Nara" (I just had to sign up again because I completely lost access to my old account). Hope all has been well with you all. I think some Hebei people should resemble him a bit... probably better than NW Han do. I have noticed some continuity between generic types through Hebei and eastern Hunan/western Jiangxi people which likely extends to a component found in certain TK-proper populations. But some of his features will also be off due to his unique admixture. That Hebei guy you posted is not very AN-shifted... just looks Sinotibetan generic + local component. I now define "Austronesian" by people who look like eg. Yilan Atayals. An actual mostly northern/continental AN-shifted Han (without too much other local components) might be something like this Shanghainese physicist (in that he structurally converges with northern TW aboriginals)    For some reason he also seems to have slightly light eyes which are common in specific coastal EA populations |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 17, 2023 16:29:30 GMT
Another thing I would like to add— Taiwanese aborigine youth (as a representative of a “purer” Austronesian group) actually have fairly high eyebrows often. It tends to end up looking weirdly “ukiyo-e painting” esque especially paired with their typical beak nose and closeset eyes. Interesting. Can you post pics to demonstrate what this "ukiyo e-painting" esque aspect look like? Btw I heard that Igorots of the Northern Phils are even purer Austronesian than Taiwanese Aborigines, the latter who seem to have some more "northern"-related input. I have some collections of TW aboriginal students though too lazy to upload all of them rn; I might do that later TW aborigines seem to be slightly Boshan/Bianbian or even Upper Yellow River shifted compared to Igorots, but I am not sure if we can conclude this is due to Igorots being admixed with something particular to the Phillipines or TW aborigines being admixed with something from a later component from EA based off of genetics. But I did notice that many Igorot rural students I collected looked surprisingly different from TW aborigines despite their close genetic distance. TW aborigine youth seem to consistently have narrow faces and aquiline noses nowadays, while some Igorots had broader faces and a shorter midface/nose   This is an Atayal woman that IMO doesn't pass in the northern Philippines very well, but is a decently common phenotype in some TW aboriginal subgroups |
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 17, 2023 16:40:00 GMT
This Tsou woman I posted earlier might pass as Igorot, but she also has distinct northern AN features like aquiline nose, somewhat higher-set eyebrows compared to continental SEAs/even many EAs, flatter cheekbones, etc.
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 17, 2023 17:08:14 GMT
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