mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jan 4, 2023 3:48:04 GMT
A typical Daic appearance is exemplified by this Thai girl listening and reacting to a Zhuang song, she thinks that Zhuang is similar to the Isan dialects from northeastern Thailand. I think this is one of the essential types of SEA or Daic appearance, and apart from Thais I've only really seen such appearance among the Tai-Kradai peoples of South China as well as certain Canto individuals from Western GD and GX. www.bilibili.com/video/BV1g44y1n7ry/?spm_id_from=333.337.search-card.all.click
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jan 4, 2023 4:11:52 GMT
Agreed on Japanese people not really resembling Northern Chinese facial features wise (facially their overlap with Chinese is stronger in the Yangtze Delta and Fujian), but I really don't see the Austronesian vibe. I don't see that much overlap with Filipinos, Taiwanese aborigines, or the SEA-influenced traits that generally make Fujianese look distinct from "true Nordsinids", Koreans, or Japanese. - Taiwanese aborigines and Filipinos don't look exactly the same; Filipinos have an additional 20% or so Onge admixture (you can check in G25) which imo is noticeable in their phenotype outside of occasional Igorot tribals - Interviewed left Japanese guy overlaps with a very specific type of Taiwanese aborigine face: (compare to woman on left at stopped- note face length and nose structure) This video is also interesting as you can see this family's body types (very Austronesian) Many Taiwanese aborigines esp. mountain ones have this elongated face + pseudo-MENA traits which makes them resemble ukiyo-e paintings - I don't think "SEA" people all look the same outside of a certain shared Onge/Papuan-like affinity relative to northern east asians at times; Taiwanese aborigines and eg. Khmer definitely look quite different from one another. I think Tai-Kradai people eg. Dai look in between Austronesian and Austroasiatic at times, with some Sinitic/Tibeto-Burman/Hmong input as well. The SEA input in Fujianese from ADMIXTURE runs might be closer to an inland SEA + Austronesian blend, while the SEA input in Shandong and Jiangsu is actually closer to "pure" Austronesian (Taiwanese-aboriginal like). So at times it might actually be more useful to look at certain Yangtze delta and even coastal Shandong/Liaoning people to see a more undilute Austronesian-influenced Han look It's good to know that there're such northern types among Taiwanese aborigines, though one has to be cautious cause they may have already mixed with Hokkien or other Chinese immigrants.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jan 4, 2023 4:15:16 GMT
My take on the migration path of Austronesians is as follows: 1) There was likely a "proto-Austronesian" or "proto-para-Austronesian" like group living somewhere around coastal Shandong which grew a crop of mixed millet and rice when rice agriculture was more conducive in that region's climate. This population was able to grow large in population and hence expand. 2) One group ended up in southwestern Korea where they became admixed with local hunter-gatherers (probably associated with O1b2 yhg) and acted as a sort of "rice culture" transmitter to the KR/JP/"Yayoi" people. Austronesians have a distinctive non-patrilineal culture which is shared with Japanese in which families are organized into "houses" rather than father-son-grandson etc. lineages, in which case people of native yhg (O1b2) would not be "suppressed" as much despite likely being less agrarian-heavy (they would simply be adopted into para-Austronesian "houses"), which explains the yhg differential between Austronesians[see note] and KR/JP/"Yayoi". Another group ended up moving southwards. No group was able to substantially impact westwards since that area was already occupied by high populations of Sino-Tibetans, tentatively Hmong-like peoples, etc. 2) Upon reaching Yangtze Delta (perhaps Zhejiang specifically), the southward population branched out into two- here, one group went straight to northern Taiwan (the geographical placements of Taiwan archaeological sites would support this) and mixed with some amount of local Onge-like peoples. The other group migrated along the continental coastline and admixed with local plausibly Austroasiatic-like populations living around Fujian 3) The continental ones kept going further west and at some point hit inland far south China, where they were now admixed with Austroasiatic, Hmong, Sino-Tibetan etc. and became what we know as "Tai-Kadai". The oceanic ones migrated to the northern Philippines, where one branch directly sailed into the Pacific and became Polynesians upon mixing with Melanesians/Papuans. Others went down into the Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. where they mixed with various amounts of local populations (mostly either Onge-like or Austroasiatic-like) This pathway imo makes the most sense and also explains why groups like Koreans and Japanese seem to have heavily "Austronesian-adjacent" tendencies at times despite being located far from Taiwan, as well as explaining why the SEA-like input in Shandong and Jiangsu Han is actually more "pure" "Ami/"Atayal"-like than in say Fujian Han despite the latter being more geographically proximal to Taiwan Note: referring to eg. Taiwanese aborigines here. I looked at Austronesian yhg tables in greater detail and found that they varied widely from place to place (some Polynesians were even majority C clades), which is likely a result of the non-patrilineality culture I described here It may sound surprising to you, but I actually agree with most of what you said here. Though I think the Sinitic and Hmong influences among Tai-Kradai peoples likely came later, the original Tai-Kradai peoples were most likely just Austronesian + Austroasiatic + maybe some slight traces of Hoabinhian.
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
Posts: 206
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Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Jan 4, 2023 4:17:48 GMT
I'm too lazy to reply to each thread. But if the above discussion regarding Austronesians is genuine, then this leads to a few interesting thoughts: 1. Austronesians likely did not originate from Taiwan but rather coastal China, and their origin may not even be in Fujian or Zhejiang, anywhere from Liaoning to Fujian is possible to consider. I was in a heated debate on Anthrogenica a few days ago with someone who firmly believed that Austronesians came from Taiwan and there was no other possibility, but judging by the above data it seems more and more likely that a continental origin for Austronesians is possible. An origin in coastal Eastern or Northern China could also explain how the Japanese and Koreans got their Austronesian influences. 2. The distinct SEA-look found among Far South Chinese (particularly Western GD and GX) and certain Taiwanese aborigines (like Abao and the Atayal man I posted earlier) seems to be more likely due to the result of admixtures with Austroasiatic, Daic, Hoabinhian/Onge, or a combination of those influences. 3. The Fujian_N component seems to be more related to Daic than to Austronesian, so this means that Daic peoples most likely originated from southeastern China around Fujian or Guangdong, whereas Austronesians were found further north in Zhejiang, Jiangsu, or even Shandong. And I remember someone from Yoogene (a Chinese anthro forum) once said that the Indonesian word for salt "garam" is directly related to the Sinitic word for salt "盐" or for salty "咸", whereas the Zhuang word for salt "gyu" or "glu" isn't. I dismissed his opinion at that time, but looking back at it this seems to be possible if Austronesians came from coastal Northern China and had direct interactions with ancient Sinitic peoples. YES you are finally realizing it I would like to discuss further on some of my new theories pertaining to - Hmongs and Austroasiatics - Central Hebei populations (which are imo a very interesting and actually rather unique northern Chinese group) but I must now take a break from this stuff
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
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Post by throway2 on Jan 4, 2023 4:22:02 GMT
They look non-northern Chinese, probably most common in Fujian. Though I do agree with Oka that they have a "non-PRC" vibe The other cousin looks probably only passable in SE China Outside of Fujian, where else are their looks very common? Really? Only the other cousin and not his sister and brother right? Probably neighboring regions; I also can't see his sister and brother's faces
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jan 4, 2023 7:36:40 GMT
Outside of Fujian, where else are their looks very common? Really? Only the other cousin and not his sister and brother right? Probably neighboring regions; I also can't see his sister and brother's faces So Zhejiang, Jiangxi, Guangdong? Would the northernmost places they can pass be around Shanghai or southern parts of Jiangsu? Here are the pics of the other cousin's young sister and younger brother. Would they also pass in the same region as my cousin and the two previous relatives I posted? ..
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jan 6, 2023 0:49:01 GMT
Hello Nara, long time no see. Happy new year! How you've been doing recently? Yes I certainly missed your comments from Anthroscape. My question for you is mostly regarding the similarity between Northern Chinese and Koreans in terms of phenotype, I think there's a large overlap between the two. I'm not sure how you think about it. And in terms of manners and behavior, I feel that Koreans are best categorized as a less extreme version of Northern Chinese, or an intermediate between Northern Chinese and Japanese. The sentiment or pressure of blending into a group is definitely still there in Chinese society, and I'd say such a sentiment is particularly strong in Northern China and in Southeast China (Fujian and Chaoshan), and less strong in other places. The Korean way of blending into a group is probably more discrete, though I've seen a clip from an old Korean movie in the 90's where a teacher publicly shames some girls in his class for being overweight and not looking appropriate, I'm not sure if that still occurs in Korean schools today. In China and particularly in Northern China, if you don't fit into the class or the group, then expect the teacher to publicly shame you in front of the whole class. I remember when I was a grade 3 primary school student in Beijing, my teacher straightly called me an idiot in front of the whole class because I sometimes forgot to bring in my homework. I learned it the hard way. And unfortunately, such things still occur to this day in the schools of Northern China. Here's a video where a primary school girl in Beijing got publicly shamed and cursed in front of the whole class by the teachers because she didn't behave as they wished. And this does not only occur in schools, family members, friends, and relatives in Northern China also tend to be rather straightforward when commenting on one's appearance or when a kid doesn't fit in. They would point it out right away in front of your face without any mercy. I've experienced it first hand as well. Really the Chinese especially the Northern Chinese aren't a tolerant and forgiving people at all. And I've been repeatedly called "monkey" by Northern Chinese netizens on Tieba, Zhihu, and Youtube just because of my preference for the looks of Tai-Kradai, Cantonese, and SE Asian people. And yes just like in Korea there're many hidden rules to follow in China, age and status are quite important as well (due to the lingering Confucian ideology). Unlike in Korea and Japan we don't bow to someone that is higher up, but that doesn't mean there's more equality. In a Chinese company if you don't respect someone that is higher up and don't send him or her gifts regularly and don't fulfill his or her unreasonable demands, then you'll quickly get yourself into trouble. Age, status, and regional discriminations are well alive in China. What is different though is that Chinese people seem to be more lenient with someone cutting in line or being noisy, though I don't consider this to be a good phenomenon, I think people should be less forgiving to such behaviors just like in Korea and Japan. Things have been quite busy, thanks for asking! How have you been during the last two, three years for you outside of anthroscape? I'm sorry to hear that you have been called various names by keyboard warriors for your preference in SEA and FSC chinese women - it sounds like there is still a lot of development to be had in that area of intra-group relations among the PRC individuals. I've also heard that there is somewhat of a stigma attached to individuals voicing a preference for northern Chinese women, as well, but you and others can correct me if I'm wrong. As for myself, I feel like I have witnessed a seismic change in people's perceptions of Korea/Koreans, including people's stereotypes of the Korean "look" due to the explosion of Hallyu, even since the last time we were on anthroscape in early 2020. There are many videos on youtube and other platforms that show how even regular Koreans traveling to various countries have been the beneficiaries of this phenomenon, with all types of non-Koreans learning Korean and engaging in the social fabrics of the stories presented in the likes of Parasite and Squid Game, the raw social commentaries of the K-noir genre that are presented without much embellishment. I do not encounter too many outrageous statements attacking Korean looks (or preferences therefor), both online or offline, anymore. Even Kpop reaction videos that start out as amateur fan-based have largely spawned a new culture of professionals analyzing the more technical elements, including vocalization techniques, narrative/canonical elements (since each Kpop group of the 4th gen has its own universe, akin to fantasy worlds), post-production editing and cinematography, rather than just focusing on the "visuals" and aimlessly contemplating on whether they are natural or artificial. So it appears that increasing soft power on global fronts does truly help to mitigate any surface-deep animosities or misconceptions people have about each other. I hope that this phenomenon can extend to other Asian powers in the coming years. Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I can better see your pov on the similarities, and appreciate your examples on the lingering vagaries of Confucianism in the Sinosphere that are common to both N.China and Korea. I also largely agree with you on your analysis that Korean culture can be best thought of as an intermediate or composite of N.China and Japan. I think the results from a recent World Values Survey should interest you (below), because it really visualizes that intermediate space that Korea often occupies vis a vis the other EA countries, while also being unique on its own -- when asked what values should be inculcated in children, Japan emphasized more "creativity", while China emphasized more "hard work" -- Korea was the only country that truly emphasized "both". Since the 90s, I think Korea has largely been moving towards this distinct cultural space within EA, where it's simultaneously both and neither of (N-)China or Japan, and the same movie that you reference with respect to teachers publicly fat-shaming children are more or less socially outlawed in 2023 Korea (sometimes to the point of being extreme on the opposite end of the pendulum, with children being too much protected/spoiled), the evolution of which is made into motion-picture films like Juvenile Justice or Extraordinary Attorney Woo (both of which were global hits of 2022). And sure, I'd be happy to provide my thoughts on the similarities between N.Chinese and Korean phenos - if you have specific videos/pictures you want me to look at, I'd be happy to do that. I'm too lazy to go through this entire thread, so directly give me a shout-out for any of the ones that you or others may have sought my thoughts before. In general, I do think there's an overlap, but I have to think a bit more about where that overlap starts and ends - my observations so far are that NE hebei and Dongbei seem to have (obvious) overlaps, but more inland N.Chinese regions may have their own unique looks that may just be more confined to their regions. But feel free to send me any that you want me to comment on directly, thanks. Thanks for asking, I'm quite good. The last 2-3 years have also been quite busy for me. To answer your first question, there might be some stigma for expressing or voicing a preference for Northern Chinese women, but such stigma is definitely much much smaller or much less important when comparing to the stigma associated with preference for FSC and SE Asian women. I've been called various names on Chinese discussion boards from monkey to dwarf to negrito, but I couldn't care less about them. I won't change my preference just because of some silly nicknames. Can't really comment on how popular K-Pop has become since I'm not really into K-Pop. But one thing I can comment is that compared to Korea and Japan China definitely has the potential to export its cultures to the world as well since the cultures languages and peoples in China are very diverse. However under the extreme censorship the only stuff that is guaranteed to pass censorship are those anti-Japanese dramas set in the WW2 era or those dramas about the Chinese revolutions, which no one in the world likes to watch apart from some old Chinese folks of my grandparents' generation. It's good to know that publicly shaming students has been outlawed in Korea, I wish it could be outlawed in China as well, but I'm not really opportunistic about it. The video that I showed you was filmed on Dec 31st 2021 so still quite recent and the two teachers who publicly shamed the young girl did not get the punishment they deserved I heard that they were only told to temporarily quit their job, not sure if they ever came back to the school. Sometime ago uisashi has posted a few video links about some soldiers in northern rural Shanxi and I think they have a rather significant overlap with Koreans. Would you mind checking the videos and share your thoughts on the matter please? Thanks. v.douyin.com/MuVDR22/ v.douyin.com/MuV79A9/ v.douyin.com/MuVCgAn/
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jan 6, 2023 6:16:22 GMT
Probably neighboring regions; I also can't see his sister and brother's faces So Zhejiang, Jiangxi, Guangdong? Would the northernmost places they can pass be around Shanghai or southern parts of Jiangsu? Here are the pics of the other cousin's young sister and younger brother. Would they also pass in the same region as my cousin and the two previous relatives I posted? -snip- FYI we can't see "closer up pics" on a person's Instagram profile if it's set to private. Also we can't see any photos in your second FB link even when logged in. Yangtze Delta seems like a stretch from what I was able to see but I guess anything's possible.
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jan 6, 2023 18:56:53 GMT
FYI we can't see "closer up pics" on a person's Instagram profile if it's set to private. Also we can't see any photos in your second FB link even when logged in. Yangtze Delta seems like a stretch from what I was able to see but I guess anything's possible. Sorry I didn't know it was set to private. By second facebook link, you mean his brother or sister? You definitely know more than me. Fujian, Jiangxi, maybe southern Zhejiang most likely then? Sorry if I sound very ignorant on the various Chinese regions and their phenotypes since I been to China only once and that was like more than 10 years ago. Also I have very limited interactions with mainland Chinese in real life.
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jan 6, 2023 23:07:52 GMT
FYI we can't see "closer up pics" on a person's Instagram profile if it's set to private. Also we can't see any photos in your second FB link even when logged in. Yangtze Delta seems like a stretch from what I was able to see but I guess anything's possible. Sorry I didn't know it was set to private. By second facebook link, you mean his brother or sister? You definitely know more than me. Fujian, Jiangxi, maybe southern Zhejiang most likely then? Sorry if I sound very ignorant on the various Chinese regions and their phenotypes since I been to China only once and that was like more than 10 years ago. Also I have very limited interactions with mainland Chinese in real life. I meant the brother. Not as familiar with what actual Chinese people in the PRC with the other Overseas Chinese members who I assume have been to China more recently than I have. I don’t think the sister really passes anywhere north or west of Fujian, but I could be wrong on that and Hunan/Jiangxi definitely could be possible.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jan 7, 2023 0:13:35 GMT
shirvanshahWhat is your phenotype again? I think your relatives are mostly far south Chinese looking
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jan 7, 2023 1:11:38 GMT
Sorry I didn't know it was set to private. By second facebook link, you mean his brother or sister? You definitely know more than me. Fujian, Jiangxi, maybe southern Zhejiang most likely then? Sorry if I sound very ignorant on the various Chinese regions and their phenotypes since I been to China only once and that was like more than 10 years ago. Also I have very limited interactions with mainland Chinese in real life. I meant the brother. Not as familiar with what actual Chinese people in the PRC with the other Overseas Chinese members who I assume have been to China more recently than I have. I don’t think the sister really passes anywhere north or west of Fujian, but I could be wrong on that and Hunan/Jiangxi definitely could be possible. My bad, I have been to China twice, not once. And both times were like more than 10 years ago. Pics of my cousin's younger brother With his sister: Graduation day with classmate:
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jan 7, 2023 3:43:06 GMT
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
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Post by throway2 on Jan 8, 2023 20:13:10 GMT
shirvanshahI think you look similar in "northernness/southernness" to your cousins. All of you look Fujian-ish?
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
Posts: 206
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Ethnic Heritage: hmongid
Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Jan 8, 2023 20:18:07 GMT
Tembang sunda (Javanese court music/sung poetry)
I'm noticing that a lot of Indonesian music forms (eg. this and gamelan) can have rather melancholy rhythms, which may due to influence from India and/or Muslim world. Nevertheless, it ends up reminding me a bit of some Japanese/Korean older music styles ie. enka/trot, noh, pansori, etc. in some ways
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