Hello Nara, long time no see. Happy new year! How you've been doing recently? Yes I certainly missed your comments from Anthroscape.

My question for you is mostly regarding the similarity between Northern Chinese and Koreans in terms of phenotype, I think there's a large overlap between the two. I'm not sure how you think about it.

And in terms of manners and behavior, I feel that Koreans are best categorized as a less extreme version of Northern Chinese, or an intermediate between Northern Chinese and Japanese. The sentiment or pressure of blending into a group is definitely still there in Chinese society, and I'd say such a sentiment is particularly strong in Northern China and in Southeast China (Fujian and Chaoshan), and less strong in other places. The Korean way of blending into a group is probably more discrete, though I've seen a clip from an old Korean movie in the 90's where a teacher publicly shames some girls in his class for being overweight and not looking appropriate, I'm not sure if that still occurs in Korean schools today. In China and particularly in Northern China, if you don't fit into the class or the group, then expect the teacher to publicly shame you in front of the whole class. I remember when I was a grade 3 primary school student in Beijing, my teacher straightly called me an idiot in front of the whole class because I sometimes forgot to bring in my homework. I learned it the hard way. And unfortunately, such things still occur to this day in the schools of Northern China. Here's a video where a primary school girl in Beijing got publicly shamed and cursed in front of the whole class by the teachers because she didn't behave as they wished.



And this does not only occur in schools, family members, friends, and relatives in Northern China also tend to be rather straightforward when commenting on one's appearance or when a kid doesn't fit in. They would point it out right away in front of your face without any mercy. I've experienced it first hand as well. Really the Chinese especially the Northern Chinese aren't a tolerant and forgiving people at all. And I've been repeatedly called "monkey" by Northern Chinese netizens on Tieba, Zhihu, and Youtube just because of my preference for the looks of Tai-Kradai, Cantonese, and SE Asian people.

And yes just like in Korea there're many hidden rules to follow in China, age and status are quite important as well (due to the lingering Confucian ideology). Unlike in Korea and Japan we don't bow to someone that is higher up, but that doesn't mean there's more equality. In a Chinese company if you don't respect someone that is higher up and don't send him or her gifts regularly and don't fulfill his or her unreasonable demands, then you'll quickly get yourself into trouble. Age, status, and regional discriminations are well alive in China.

What is different though is that Chinese people seem to be more lenient with someone cutting in line or being noisy, though I don't consider this to be a good phenomenon, I think people should be less forgiving to such behaviors just like in Korea and Japan.

I think that is partially due to China being rather "Tu" due to lack of development, it's hard to compare Chinese behaviour to Koreans due to the large economic gap.

I briefly went to like grade 3 in North China and I remember I got into a fight with some kid and I was blamed for it. The teacher called me a foreign devil who wants to bully Chinese people and said something along the lines of how Chinese people will fight back against you foreign bullies. I don't think that is something a teacher should say to a kid. Primary school in general just seemed to be full of asshole teachers from a western POV. One teacher slapped me for virtually no reason then mocked me, saying "I bet they don't do that in Australia, welcome to China".

When I got older I think this type of abuse is partially due to Sinotibetan culture being more straightforward and also due to Chinese people being socially behind due to the Cultural Revolution.

Things have been quite busy, thanks for asking!  How have you been during the last two, three years for you outside of anthroscape? I'm sorry to hear that you have been called various names by keyboard warriors for your preference in SEA and FSC chinese women - it sounds like there is still a lot of development to be had in that area of intra-group relations among the PRC individuals. I've also heard that there is somewhat of a stigma attached to individuals voicing a preference for northern Chinese women, as well, but you and others can correct me if I'm wrong.

As for myself, I feel like I have witnessed a seismic change in people's perceptions of Korea/Koreans, including people's stereotypes of the Korean "look" due to the explosion of Hallyu, even since the last time we were on anthroscape in early 2020. There are many videos on youtube and other platforms that show how even regular Koreans traveling to various countries have been the beneficiaries of this phenomenon, with all types of non-Koreans learning Korean and engaging in the social fabrics of the stories presented in the likes of Parasite and Squid Game, the raw social commentaries of the K-noir genre that are presented without much embellishment. I do not encounter too many outrageous statements attacking Korean looks (or preferences therefor), both online or offline, anymore. Even Kpop reaction videos that start out as amateur fan-based have largely spawned a new culture of professionals analyzing the more technical elements, including vocalization techniques, narrative/canonical elements (since each Kpop group of the 4th gen has its own universe, akin to fantasy worlds), post-production editing and cinematography, rather than just focusing on the "visuals" and aimlessly contemplating on whether they are natural or artificial. So it appears that increasing soft power on global fronts does truly help to mitigate any surface-deep animosities or misconceptions people have about each other. I hope that this phenomenon can extend to other Asian powers in the coming years.

Thanks for the more detailed explanation. I can better see your pov on the similarities, and appreciate your examples on the lingering vagaries of Confucianism in the Sinosphere that are common to both N.China and Korea. I also largely agree with you on your analysis that Korean culture can be best thought of as an intermediate or composite of N.China and Japan. I think the results from a recent World Values Survey should interest you (below), because it really visualizes that intermediate space that Korea often occupies vis a vis the other EA countries, while also being unique on its own -- when asked what values should be inculcated in children, Japan emphasized more "creativity", while China emphasized more "hard work" -- Korea was the only country that truly emphasized "both". Since the 90s, I think Korea has largely been moving towards this distinct cultural space within EA, where it's simultaneously both and neither of (N-)China or Japan, and the same movie that you reference with respect to teachers publicly fat-shaming children are more or less socially outlawed in 2023 Korea (sometimes to the point of being extreme on the opposite end of the pendulum, with children being too much protected/spoiled), the evolution of which is made into motion-picture films like Juvenile Justice or Extraordinary Attorney Woo (both of which were global hits of 2022).



And sure, I'd be happy to provide my thoughts on the similarities between N.Chinese and Korean phenos - if you have specific videos/pictures you want me to look at, I'd be happy to do that. I'm too lazy to go through this entire thread, so directly give me a shout-out for any of the ones that you or others may have sought my thoughts before. In general, I do think there's an overlap, but I have to think a bit more about where that overlap starts and ends - my observations so far are that NE hebei and Dongbei seem to have (obvious) overlaps, but more inland N.Chinese regions may have their own unique looks that may just be more confined to their regions. But feel free to send me any that you want me to comment on directly, thanks.

- Taiwanese aborigines and Filipinos don't look exactly the same; Filipinos have an additional 20% or so Onge admixture (you can check in G25) which imo is noticeable in their phenotype outside of occasional Igorot tribals

- Interviewed left Japanese guy overlaps with a very specific type of Taiwanese aborigine face:
(compare to woman on left at stopped- note face length and nose structure)
This video is also interesting as you can see this family's body types (very Austronesian)
Many Taiwanese aborigines esp. mountain ones have this elongated face + pseudo-MENA traits which makes them resemble ukiyo-e paintings

- I don't think "SEA" people all look the same outside of a certain shared Onge/Papuan-like affinity relative to northern east asians at times; Taiwanese aborigines and eg. Khmer definitely look quite different from one another. I think Tai-Kradai people eg. Dai look in between Austronesian and Austroasiatic at times, with some Sinitic/Tibeto-Burman/Hmong input as well. The SEA input in Fujianese from ADMIXTURE runs might be closer to an inland SEA + Austronesian blend, while the SEA input in Shandong and Jiangsu is actually closer to "pure" Austronesian (Taiwanese-aboriginal like). So at times it might actually be more useful to look at certain Yangtze delta and even coastal Shandong/Liaoning people to see a more undilute Austronesian-influenced Han look

My take on the migration path of Austronesians is as follows:
1) There was likely a "proto-Austronesian" or "proto-para-Austronesian" like group living somewhere around coastal Shandong which grew a crop of mixed millet and rice when rice agriculture was more conducive in that region's climate. This population was able to grow large in population and hence expand.
2) One group ended up in southwestern Korea where they became admixed with local hunter-gatherers (probably associated with O1b2 yhg) and acted as a sort of "rice culture" transmitter to the KR/JP/"Yayoi" people. Austronesians have a distinctive non-patrilineal culture which is shared with Japanese in which families are organized into "houses" rather than father-son-grandson etc. lineages, in which case people of native yhg (O1b2) would not be "suppressed" as much despite likely being less agrarian-heavy (they would simply be adopted into para-Austronesian "houses"), which explains the yhg differential between Austronesians[see note] and KR/JP/"Yayoi". Another group ended up moving southwards. No group was able to substantially impact westwards since that area was already occupied by high populations of Sino-Tibetans, tentatively Hmong-like peoples, etc.
2) Upon reaching Yangtze Delta (perhaps Zhejiang specifically), the southward population branched out into two- here, one group went straight to northern Taiwan (the geographical placements of Taiwan archaeological sites would support this) and mixed with some amount of local Onge-like peoples. The other group migrated along the continental coastline and admixed with local plausibly Austroasiatic-like populations living around Fujian
3) The continental ones kept going further west and at some point hit inland far south China, where they were now admixed with Austroasiatic, Hmong, Sino-Tibetan etc. and became what we know as "Tai-Kadai". The oceanic ones migrated to the northern Philippines, where one branch directly sailed into the Pacific and became Polynesians upon mixing with Melanesians/Papuans. Others went down into the Phillipines, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. where they mixed with various amounts of local populations (mostly either Onge-like or Austroasiatic-like)

This pathway imo makes the most sense and also explains why groups like Koreans and Japanese seem to have heavily "Austronesian-adjacent" tendencies at times despite being located far from Taiwan, as well as explaining why the SEA-like input in Shandong and Jiangsu Han is actually more "pure" "Ami/"Atayal"-like than in say Fujian Han despite the latter being more geographically proximal to Taiwan

Note: referring to eg. Taiwanese aborigines here. I looked at Austronesian yhg tables in greater detail and found that they varied widely from place to place (some Polynesians were even majority C clades), which is likely a result of the non-patrilineality culture I described here

The Taiwanese aborigines in your video look very Filipino to me, i.e. there's plenty of physical overlap with members of the Filipino diaspora in the US. The non-Neolithic farmer population contribution to modern Filipino autosomal DNA (which isn't necessarily Onge-like although we can't assume it's all from Aeta-like groups either) probably does influence Filipino phenotype, although I'm surprised they're modeled as 20% Onge in G25 (IIRC this isn't that far off from Malays and Javanese)

Off-topic but Tsakhur/Kheshigten ran some G25 results for Filipinos on a different forum some time ago: www.amazians.com/forum/anthropology-and-population-genetics/global25-results-of-pinoys/



Not at all what I was insinuating, but I agree that the SEA-like genetic contribution in Fujian Han is more Daic than pure Austronesian. Anthrogenica user ph2ter's ancients-to-modern populations maps model Northern Han as having their rice farmer ancestry modeled by a "pure Austronesian" component (VUT2900BP), as opposed to Southern Han being modeled with a more generalized coastal SEA-like combo of Xitoucun + Liangdao + Qihe. Modern-day Taiwanese aborigines are modeled with both VUT2900BP and this generalized "coastal SE China Neolithic" component





I know the "Austronesian-influenced" look you speak of exists among Shandong and Yangtze Delta Han, although casually inferring phenotype from genotype and vice versa seems kind of sketch to me.

Target,Distance,Atayal,Onge,Thai

Vizayan,0.02925898,82.4,17.6,0.0

Indonesian_Java,0.08470217,34.6,0.2,65.2

Malay,0.04480838,41.2,10.8,48.0

Average,0.05292318,52.7,9.5,37.7


Some casual runs I did in G25 using only modern populations, too lazy to improve the Javanese one. Visayans can be modeled rather well with a strictly Atayal + ~18% additional Onge bifurcation, Javanese and Malay have a heavier Thai-like component (which is likely mostly Austroasiatic-leaning)


Human faces evolve as a result of differing environments, but in hunter-gatherers, this was mostly climatic and quite long-term/slow (body types evolve faster than cranial morphology). Upon the advent of agriculture, new factors were introduced (that were never really seen before) and as a result early agrarian populations tend to look rather different from hunter-gatherer ones. There is plenty of literature on this. This goes for all of Europe, Asia, and the Americas. You may compare Amazonians to Quechua, or Sino-Tibetan proper populations to both their northern and southern neighbors (Mongols and Hmong). Hence, one can absolutely infer population migrations by looking at the amount of "agrarian" face types in a given population. I might sound like a madman, but I would even go as far as to say that this (after accounting for growth patterns) is a cleaner and more effective methodology for tracing post-Neolithic large-scale human migrations than both autosomes and uniparentals, the former of which is obfuscated with considerable statistical uncertainty and the latter having differential culture-dependent spread patterns

(I will stop posting now for a while; I again relapsed in anthrotardism and must take a break)