mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jun 27, 2022 23:53:37 GMT
Btw can these girls pass as Central or Northern Chinese? They are ethnic Phu Thai from Northeast Thailand. I'm not sure how typical are their phenos among the Phu Thai though as a lot of their pics that I have seen (I never really interact with this ethnic group before), they look much more Austroasiatic and Hoabinhian or AASI admixed than these girls. She can pass easily as a Thai of Chinese descent as well. I don’t think either of them can pass as Han Chinese anywhere in China. They’re both too distinctly SEA looking, the one on the right actually has a distinctly Thai looking eyes + nose + mouth shape combo. I disagree, I think both can pass in GX and GD, and also maybe in some parts of Southwest China like Yunnan and Guizhou, but it's hard for them (especially for the girl on the left) to pass anywhere further north than the places I've mentioned.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jun 27, 2022 23:59:55 GMT
Some people are definitely exaggerating things to suit their own agenda. IMHO Taiwanese aborigines look quite similar to Far South Chinese and SE Asians and don't look Caucasoid at all. Large eyes aren't a unique Caucasoid feature it's quite common in Far South China and SE Asia. Regarding the two Phu Thai girls that you posted, the left one cannot pass in Central and Northern China cause she has a rather typical Tai appearance and resembles some girls that I know from Far South China and Sipsongpanna. The right one has a better chance of passing, but still not the most typical. So in China her look would be most common in Guangxi, Sipsongpanna and parts of Guangdong among ethnic Zhuang, Dai and some other minorities? Where in China would the right girl look be the most common? Both can pass in GX and GD among either Han or minority, and both can pass in Yunnan among either Han or minority as well. The right one has a slightly better chance to pass in Central China than the left one, but still I'm stretching things a bit cause even the right one looks rather Thai. I think the right girl's look is probably the most common in Yunnan or Sichuan TBH, while the left one can pass in Yunnan as well as GD and GX.
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jun 28, 2022 6:32:48 GMT
I don’t think either of them can pass as Han Chinese anywhere in China. They’re both too distinctly SEA looking, the one on the right actually has a distinctly Thai looking eyes + nose + mouth shape combo. okarinaofsteiner In China can they pass among Southern minorities such as Dai, Zhuang, Bouyei, Maonan? By "Thai" do you mean more like the assimilated Mon-Khmer Central Thai/Siamese with some Chinese blood or more like Northern Thai/Dai direction? Would they pass overall better in Vietnam than Thailand? Because tbh, I think their look is pretty atypical for Thailand except the Northern Region (former Lanna kingdom) and maybe parts of Northern Isaan/Northeast. Even I feel that they look a bit northern-shifted for their ethnic group. Btw their ethnic group is related to Thai (not the same as "Thai" of Thailand) of Northwest Vietnam, Nung and Tay ethnic groups of Northeast Vietnam. No idea about Daic-speaking minority groups in China, I just know neither really looks Canto. They just have big round eyes and SEA-ish facial proportions. I kind of get why mnopsc1b thinks the one on the right can pass further north in China, but the size of her eyes + the shape of her eyes is too "exotic" for her to really pass as Han Chinese or even Vietnamese. Idk if it's a "Hoabinhian" phenotype but it's definitely very distinctly southern looking IMO. My internal frame of reference for "Thai" would be your first group, but they also resemble some individuals you've PMed me from your second group way more than the Viets I've met IRL. Neither really looks Viet to me, although the one on the left would pass a little better IMO. The one on the right has a relatively narrow nose + mouth + jaw area, which is what makes her superficially "Chinese passing". The shape of her nostrils + lower nose is actually very distinctly SEA looking, and the shape of her lips is very Mainland SEA looking to me. She has a "Thai plastic surgery-oid look" to me.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jun 28, 2022 13:03:50 GMT
okarinaofsteiner In China can they pass among Southern minorities such as Dai, Zhuang, Bouyei, Maonan? By "Thai" do you mean more like the assimilated Mon-Khmer Central Thai/Siamese with some Chinese blood or more like Northern Thai/Dai direction? Would they pass overall better in Vietnam than Thailand? Because tbh, I think their look is pretty atypical for Thailand except the Northern Region (former Lanna kingdom) and maybe parts of Northern Isaan/Northeast. Even I feel that they look a bit northern-shifted for their ethnic group. Btw their ethnic group is related to Thai (not the same as "Thai" of Thailand) of Northwest Vietnam, Nung and Tay ethnic groups of Northeast Vietnam. No idea about Daic-speaking minority groups in China, I just know neither really looks Canto. They just have big round eyes and SEA-ish facial proportions. I kind of get why mnopsc1b thinks the one on the right can pass further north in China, but the size of her eyes + the shape of her eyes is too "exotic" for her to really pass as Han Chinese or even Vietnamese. Idk if it's a "Hoabinhian" phenotype but it's definitely very distinctly southern looking IMO. You don't know that well about Canto peoples either. Cantonese don't just exist in HK or Guangzhou, there're also many Canto speakers in Western GD and GX, and I can definitely see them passing among the Canto speakers in those regions. I think they resemble some of my GX friends and acquaintances. And they can definitely pass as Daic-speaking minorities in Far South China, no doubt about that. Compared to the girl on the left, the girl on the right has a slightly better chance at passing further north in China, but the furthest north she could pass is probably Sichuan or Chongqing, anywhere further north than that is hard for her to pass.
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jun 29, 2022 5:05:35 GMT
No idea about Daic-speaking minority groups in China, I just know neither really looks Canto. They just have big round eyes and SEA-ish facial proportions. I kind of get why mnopsc1b thinks the one on the right can pass further north in China, but the size of her eyes + the shape of her eyes is too "exotic" for her to really pass as Han Chinese or even Vietnamese. Idk if it's a "Hoabinhian" phenotype but it's definitely very distinctly southern looking IMO. You don't know that well about Canto peoples either. Cantonese don't just exist in HK or Guangzhou, there're also many Canto speakers in Western GD and GX, and I can definitely see them passing among the Canto speakers in those regions. I think they resemble some of my GX friends and acquaintances. And they can definitely pass as Daic-speaking minorities in Far South China, no doubt about that. Compared to the girl on the left, the girl on the right has a slightly better chance at passing further north in China, but the furthest north she could pass is probably Sichuan or Chongqing, anywhere further north than that is hard for her to pass. Now that I think about it, Left passes slightly better as Chinese IMO even if she looks more distinctly southern. I don't think either passes particularly well as Lingnan Han though. Right's eye shape + eye size just doesn't exist among the most southern-looking Han Chinese I've seen IRL or seen photos/video clips of online. Actor Chen Tang (唐辰瀛) is ethnic Zhuang and grew up in Guangxi before moving to the US. Here's a photo of him Off topic but @throway from Anthroscape recently sent me the following observations, which I'm sharing because he mentioned possible differences between "western" and "eastern" Lingnan.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jun 29, 2022 18:16:49 GMT
Adding on to what Oka said-
Although my observations on body types somewhat go against existing stereotypes, I would also extend it to that Mongols tend to be rather skinny, thin-limbed, and narrow-shouldered, especially when compared to Austronesian groups.
Some Austronesian videos:
(Older Taiwanese aboriginal men- pay attention to their arms)
(Filipino-Americans tinikling- pay attention to their legs)
Compare to young Mongols dancing in Ulaanbaatar:
(pay attention to leg shape)
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jun 29, 2022 22:59:54 GMT
You don't know that well about Canto peoples either. Cantonese don't just exist in HK or Guangzhou, there're also many Canto speakers in Western GD and GX, and I can definitely see them passing among the Canto speakers in those regions. I think they resemble some of my GX friends and acquaintances. And they can definitely pass as Daic-speaking minorities in Far South China, no doubt about that. Compared to the girl on the left, the girl on the right has a slightly better chance at passing further north in China, but the furthest north she could pass is probably Sichuan or Chongqing, anywhere further north than that is hard for her to pass. Now that I think about it, Left passes slightly better as Chinese IMO even if she looks more distinctly southern. I don't think either passes particularly well as Lingnan Han though. Right's eye shape + eye size just doesn't exist among the most southern-looking Han Chinese I've seen IRL or seen photos/video clips of online. Actor Chen Tang (唐辰瀛) is ethnic Zhuang and grew up in Guangxi before moving to the US. Here's a photo of him You accused me of cherry-picking in a private message on Anthrogenica, but you're much more of a cherry-picker than me. Celebrities, especially actors or actresses, are quite bad at representing a region, and I think you know that quite well. But not only that, you deliberately selected a photo where the actor is smiling and squinting his eyes to suit your agenda. The actor is probably not a full-blooded Zhuang, cause Tang (唐) isn't a super common Guangxi or Zhuang family name as far as I know (the most common Zhuang family names are Wei 韦, Huang 黄, and Qin 覃), instead it's more common in Sichuan and Hunan, so it's possible that he has Sichuan or Hunan bloodlines. But still I can see that he has some Far South features, such as bushy eyebrows that are set rather close to the eyes, which I tend to associate with Far South Chinese. Anyways, the dozens of random individual photos as well as the athlete photos that I provided should be much more representative of Lingnan features than the one actor photo you deliberately selected. And I can definitely see the Phu Thai girl on the left passing in GD and GX either among the Cantonese or among the minorities, no doubt about that. As for the girl on the right, now that I come to think of it, her features might be more typical in Yunnan.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jun 29, 2022 23:27:35 GMT
I still hold such opinions to this day. Northern Chinese, particularly those from the eastern and northeastern parts of Northern China, are much stockier than the majority if not all of Southern Chinese I've encountered. They're probably the stockiest East Asians out there along with Mongols and Koreans. But there're also differences among Southern Chinese. From my impression, those from Jiangsu, Zhejiang, and Auhui tend to be the stockiest among Southern Chinese and are closest in appearance, body build, and height to Northern Chinese. Some Hokkien and Hakka people can be quite tall and stocky as well. In fact the impression I got from watching Taiwanese variety shows is that Taiwanese Han (who are mostly of Hokkien and Hakka descent) are paler, taller, and stockier than the Taiwanese aborigines who tend to be rather thin and have a darker complexion. Cantonese, on the other hand, are probably the most slender and gracile among all the Sinitic ethnolinguistic subgroups, and I don't think there's a huge difference in terms of body build between Cantonese from the Pearl River Delta and Cantonese from regions further to the west (Pearl River Delta is actually the easternmost Cantonese area, further to the east you'll be entering Hakka and Teochew territories). To give a pertinent example, look no further than Ip Man. The actor Donnie Yen who played him in the Ip Man series is already quite slender and gracile by Chinese standards, and Donnie Yen is of Cantonese descent (it's worth mentioning because many HK celebrities and actors/actresses aren't of Cantonese descent). And the real Ip Man in history (if you bother to search some of his old photos) was even more slender than Donnie Yen, and he was a famous Cantonese Wing Chun martial artist from Foshan. Overall I would say that Cantonese people's body build is quite similar to neighboring Tai-Kradai peoples, who also tend to be rather slender and lightly built. I think there's a clear positive correlation between the amount of Northern Han genome and the level of stockiness among East Asians, the more Northern Han or Neolithic Yellow River genome a population has, the stockier they are. Hence the reason why Hokkien and Hakka have more stocky types than Cantonese, since they have higher levels of Northern Han/Neolithic YR genome. I think such features were most likely brought to the eastern parts of Central and Southern China by historical Sinitic migrants who came from the eastern parts of Northern China and who migrated down south along a coastal route. I definitely wouldn't associate stockiness with Austronesians, cause apart from Polynesians most other Austronesians aren't stocky at all, and Polynesians have at least 30% Melanesian genomes, hence the reason they're different.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jun 29, 2022 23:59:36 GMT
Adding on to what Oka said- Although my observations on body types somewhat go against existing stereotypes, I would also extend it to that Mongols tend to be rather skinny, thin-limbed, and narrow-shouldered, especially when compared to Austronesian groups. You live in your dream world. Have you ever watched Mongolian Boke? Go watch some Boke matches and check how thick those wrestlers are, no Austronesian, Far South Chinese, or SE Asian can ever come close to their level of thickness and stockiness, only some Korean Ssireum wrestlers and Japanese Sumo wrestlers can perhaps match them. And speaking of wrestling, it's largely non-existent among Far South Chinese peoples and SE Asians as a tradition, however it has a long history in Northern Asia that goes back at least several thousand years and was practiced by almost all northern peoples ranging from Japanese and Koreans to Mongols, Manchus, and ancient Sinitic people. The only exception among Austronesians is the Polynesians, however it's well-known that they have significant levels of Melanesian admixtures.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jun 30, 2022 0:45:26 GMT
"I still hold such opinions to this day. Northern Chinese, particularly those from the eastern and northeastern parts of Northern China, are much stockier than the majority if not all of Southern Chinese I've encountered. They're probably the stockiest East Asians out there along with Mongols and Koreans." Koreans and northeastern Chinese are far stockier than Mongols. Mongolian wrestlers do not represent the average Mongol at all. Please do not hold onto stereotypes like this. "I think there's a clear positive correlation between the amount of Northern Han genome and the level of stockiness among East Asians, the more Northern Han or Neolithic Yellow River genome a population has, the stockier they are." Northwestern Chinese are often thin in build, but might be somewhat stockier than Tibetans and Mongols due to being more southern-shifted. They are less stocky than Northeastern Chinese. There is a clearer positive correlation between being a coastal rice farming group (or historically so, as rice farming had early roots in Shandong/lower yellow river) and being stocky. This tends to correspond well to Austronesian admixture.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jun 30, 2022 1:42:06 GMT
Koreans and northeastern Chinese are far stockier than Mongols. Mongolian wrestlers do not represent the average Mongol at all. Please do not hold onto stereotypes like this. Northwestern Chinese are often thin in build, but might be somewhat stockier than Tibetans and Mongols due to being more southern-shifted. They are less stocky than Northeastern Chinese. There is a clearer positive correlation between being a coastal rice farming group (or historically so, as rice farming had early roots in Shandong/lower yellow river) and being stocky. This tends to correspond well to Austronesian admixture. Nope, according to my observations the three (Mongolians, Koreans, and Northern Chinese) are all quite stocky and are on a similar level of stockiness. It's true that Northwestern Chinese and Tibetans are often thinner in build than their eastern brethren, but this could be due to non-genetic factors like nutrition or the environment (high altitude). You can't deny that much of northwestern China is still rather underdeveloped. However, Cantonese, with okay or even adequate nutrition and economical development, are still much less stockier than Northern Chinese and Koreans, and this could only be due to their Daic-like genes. Sorry, but rice farming didn't have early roots in Shandong/Lower Yellow River, it originated from the mid to lower reaches of the Yangtse in Central China around 8 to 9 kya, and spread both to the north and to the south. The early peoples of Shandong were hunter-gatherers or millet farmers, and there's nothing that indicates they were Austronesians. Their genome is even more northern-shifted than today's Northern Chinese.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jun 30, 2022 1:57:59 GMT
"However, Cantonese, with okay or even adequate nutrition and economical development, are still much less stockier than Northern Chinese and Koreans, and this could only be due to their Daic-like genes." imgur.com/a/CailFDr (Image of Cantonese laborers in America, a long time before Guangdong was developed). It's possible that Cantonese actually became less stocky with development, in a similar manner to Koreans and Japanese (older Koreans/Japanese are extremely stocky). "Sorry, but rice farming didn't have early roots in Shandong/Lower Yellow River, it originated from the mid to lower reaches of the Yangtse in Central China around 8 to 9 kya, and spread both to the north and to the south. The early peoples of Shandong were hunter-gatherers or millet farmers, and there's nothing that indicates they were Austronesians. Their genome is even more northern-shifted than today's Northern Chinese." Perhaps I was unclear- I dont think Shandong was necessarily the "origin" of all rice farming, but it's clear that it was at least a major early node (esp. of rice farming transmission towards Korea and Japan).
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jun 30, 2022 2:07:02 GMT
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618221005577Also, its suggested by this new paper that the region from which rice cultivation originated from was likely a broader area than "only" lower Yangtze, and rather likely included Shandong as well... An interesting quote: " In contrast to a previous proposal that rice farmers in LYa were the ancestors of Austronesian-speaking people, recently available linguistic and archaeological evidence supports that the ancestors of Austronesian-speaking populations had their roots in SD [Shandong] (Sagart et al., 2017). They were essentially not farmers who relied solely on rice, but on mixed millet-rice farming. In Taiwan the first farmers used both millets and rice (Deng et al., 2018). One possible explanation for this scenario is that these farmers who likely originated from the eastern coast of China kept their agricultural tradition, even in southern sub-tropical and tropical environments like Taiwan where rice is relatively easy to cultivate. On the other hand, rain-fed rice cultivation is not necessarily more productive than millet-based agriculture. In mainland SWC, similarly, rice is always accompanied by millets in archaeobotanical records (Zhang et al., 2017; Dal Martello et al., 2018; Deng et al., 2018), although this might have originated at least in some regions from another wave of migration through inland routes from central China (He et al., 2017)."
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jun 30, 2022 4:27:12 GMT
"However, Cantonese, with okay or even adequate nutrition and economical development, are still much less stockier than Northern Chinese and Koreans, and this could only be due to their Daic-like genes." imgur.com/a/CailFDr (Image of Cantonese laborers in America, a long time before Guangdong was developed). It's possible that Cantonese actually became less stocky with development, in a similar manner to Koreans and Japanese (older Koreans/Japanese are extremely stocky). "Sorry, but rice farming didn't have early roots in Shandong/Lower Yellow River, it originated from the mid to lower reaches of the Yangtse in Central China around 8 to 9 kya, and spread both to the north and to the south. The early peoples of Shandong were hunter-gatherers or millet farmers, and there's nothing that indicates they were Austronesians. Their genome is even more northern-shifted than today's Northern Chinese." Perhaps I was unclear- I dont think Shandong was necessarily the "origin" of all rice farming, but it's clear that it was at least a major early node (esp. of rice farming transmission towards Korea and Japan). But how do you know that the people on that photo were all Cantonese? Dubious photo with no date no reference no location cannot prove anything, and it's obvious that you didn't take that photo hence there's no way for you to know. I don't think with development people would become less stocky. Western Guangdong and Guangxi are generally less developed than the Pearl Delta region and Eastern Guangdong, yet the people there don't give me any stocky impressions, instead they are quite slender and slim even compared to people from Pearl River Delta and Eastern Guangdong, and are rather similar to neighboring Tai-Kradai peoples. You can trust me on my judgements cause I know quite some people from those regions. I don't deny that Shandong could be an important relay station for the spread of rice cultivation to Korea/Japan and to other parts of Northern China, but how does that have anything to do with stockiness? Does rice cultivation require the farmers to be particularly stocky? I really don't think so judging by my observations, instead it's probably the opposite I would say. IMHO stockiness was a relic from the hunter-gathering populations that inhabited Northern China in the Upper Paleolithic or Early Neolithic, and these peoples largely mixed into the emerging farming populations, hence the reason why early Neolithic Shandong peoples were quite northern-shifted in their genome.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jun 30, 2022 5:38:18 GMT
"I don't deny that Shandong could be an important relay station for the spread of rice cultivation to Korea/Japan and to other parts of Northern China, but how does that have anything to do with stockiness? Does rice cultivation require the farmers to be particularly stocky? I really don't think so judging by my observations, instead it's probably the opposite I would say. IMHO stockiness was a relic from the hunter-gathering populations that inhabited Northern China in the Upper Paleolithic or Early Neolithic, and these peoples largely mixed into the emerging farming populations, hence the reason why early Neolithic Shandong peoples were quite northern-shifted in their genome." Literally every single hunter-gatherer group in existence is skinny. Hunter-gatherers need long legs to run fast. Amerindians are also very thin in build compared to most East Asians, though probably comparable to Mongols/Central Asians. On the other hand, you need much more leg strength, etc. to squat and grow rice, pick up boxes, etc. in a rice-farming lifestyle. Rice farming requires a particularly long squatting time as well compared to wheat/millet farming. Hence, rice farmers become more stocky and muscular than usual.
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