throway2
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Post by throway2 on Dec 23, 2022 22:21:15 GMT
mnopsc1bThoughts on this infographic I tried to make for the evolution of east asian phenotypes? *change “pleistocene” to “paleolithic”
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Dec 23, 2022 22:28:26 GMT
2) Anyone with a working eye can tell that Far South Chinese and SE Asians are on average more gracile than Northern Chinese and Mongols. And the majority of Northern Chinese are definitely closer to Japanese and Koreans than to Burmese or Tibetans (I mean both genetically and culturally). Uhhhh.... Do you know anything about lowland Tibeto-Burman culture? To put it simply, if you take the average northern Chinese farmer and put them in say a Naxi or Lisu village, they will feel perfectly at home. Cultural similarities with Japanese are more surface level/macroscale, while cultural similarities with Tibeto-Burmans are at the core/microscale. So living habits, behaviors, etc. will more align between most Han Chinese and most Tibeto-Burmans than between most Han Chinese and Japanese. This even goes for culturally deviated groups like Tibetans imo. And the only reason Tibetans/Bhutanese deviate in genetics is because of their small Paniya-like input from pre-Tibetan himalayan plateau populations. This makes them look more distant on say a PCA than they would be. But the bulk of their genome is clearly from the same source as ancient Sinitics. I think most Chinese people don't realize just how Tibeto-Burman behaving and looking they are in reality. But once you take the Tibeto-Burman pill you will no longer worry about these retarded "north" "south" notions (ie. lumping in northern Chinese with goddamn Mongolians???)) In fact, I think, without elaborating too much in detail, people with your behavioral patterns (which judging from your online internet behavior is an archetype quite common in mainland Chinese) are more common in Tibeto-Burmans and Hmongs than in say Filipinos
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 24, 2022 16:40:20 GMT
mnopsc1b Thoughts on this infographic I tried to make for the evolution of east asian phenotypes? *change “pleistocene” to “paleolithic” There're many things that I don't agree with your graph. First of all the original Neo-Mongoloids did not derive from Onge, instead they and Onge both derived from a common East Eurasian ancestor. And that ancestor most likely looked like San Bushmen with brownish skin, which in the case of Neo-Mongoloids became lighter due to living in a colder environment whereas in the case of Onge became darker due to living in a tropical environment. Second thing that I don't agree with you is the part of Neolithic advent of agriculture. The thing is Austronesians belong to the Southern East Asian lineage whereas both Japanese/Korean and Tibeto-Burmans belong to the Northern East Asian lineage, and these two diverged around 23,400 ybp according to molecular clock analysis, which was in the Paleolithic and not the Neolithic. Austronesian's closest relative is not Tibeto-Burman or Japanese/Korean but inland Southern East Asian or Austroasiatic, and the two diverged around 16,000 ybp. Third thing is the typical SE Asian phenotype shown in the graph is actually around 35% to 40% Onge and not 30%, 30% Onge is around the level of Far South Chinese.
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 24, 2022 17:09:28 GMT
2) Anyone with a working eye can tell that Far South Chinese and SE Asians are on average more gracile than Northern Chinese and Mongols. And the majority of Northern Chinese are definitely closer to Japanese and Koreans than to Burmese or Tibetans (I mean both genetically and culturally). Uhhhh.... Do you know anything about lowland Tibeto-Burman culture? To put it simply, if you take the average northern Chinese farmer and put them in say a Naxi or Lisu village, they will feel perfectly at home. Cultural similarities with Japanese are more surface level/macroscale, while cultural similarities with Tibeto-Burmans are at the core/microscale. So living habits, behaviors, etc. will more align between most Han Chinese and most Tibeto-Burmans than between most Han Chinese and Japanese. This even goes for culturally deviated groups like Tibetans imo. And the only reason Tibetans/Bhutanese deviate in genetics is because of their small Paniya-like input from pre-Tibetan himalayan plateau populations. This makes them look more distant on say a PCA than they would be. But the bulk of their genome is clearly from the same source as ancient Sinitics. I think most Chinese people don't realize just how Tibeto-Burman behaving and looking they are in reality. But once you take the Tibeto-Burman pill you will no longer worry about these retarded "north" "south" notions (ie. lumping in northern Chinese with goddamn Mongolians???)) In fact, I think, without elaborating too much in detail, people with your behavioral patterns (which judging from your online internet behavior is an archetype quite common in mainland Chinese) are more common in Tibeto-Burmans and Hmongs than in say Filipinos I admit that I don't know that much about lowland Tibeto-Burman cultures, but I don't think their culture is similar to Northern Chinese. I've seen many comments of Tibeto-Burman netizens from Northeast India on Youtube, and they seem to think that their culture is most similar with Southwest Chinese minorities like the Wa (which is Austroasiatic). I've never heard any of them claiming any cultural similarities with Northern or Central Chinese. Genetically most lowland Tibeto-Burmans are indeed quite northern-shifted similar to ancient Sinitics and modern Northern Chinese, though you have to understand that genetics and culture are different concepts and aren't necessarily closely aligned or related. But there are also some lowland Tibeto-Burmans, most notably the Burmese, that have received substantial SE Asian and South Asian input. It doesn't matter how you think Northern Chinese are close to lowland Tibeto-Burmans, both genetically and culturally I'd say the closest people to Northern Chinese are the Koreans. I know this might hurt your feelings, but you have to accept the truth. And yes, Northern Chinese and Inner Mongolians are also quite similar both in terms of genetics and culture, though Outer Mongolians or Khalka Mongols are slightly more distinct. For Far South Chinese from Lingnan on the other hand, their closest relatives are the Vietnamese as well as the various Tai-Kradai tribes in South China and SE Asia. These "north" and "south" notions indeed actually exist and they aren't retarded. Genetically, all Sinitic populations exist on a cline going from Korean/Japanese on the one end to SE Asians on the other end. I've debated with many Chinese Internet netizens and I think your behavior is much more typical of mainland Chinese especially mainland Northern Chinese than mine. Quite some Northern Chinese netizens tend to exaggerate their relation (be it genetic or cultural) with Tibeto-Burmans while ignoring or sometimes outright denying their relation with Manchus, Mongols, and Koreans / Japanese. And they also tend to relate Koreans / Japanese to SE Asians due to the fact that they perceive SE Asians as inferior therefore by relating Koreans / Japanese to SE Asians they think that they've put them down on their racial hierarchy. All these behaviors have been reflected in your comments. On the other hand, I've rarely seen mainland Chinese netizens having a favorable opinion towards FSC and SE Asians like mine. My opinion and behavior are rather unique for a mainland Chinese.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Dec 24, 2022 17:41:53 GMT
Uhhhh.... Do you know anything about lowland Tibeto-Burman culture? To put it simply, if you take the average northern Chinese farmer and put them in say a Naxi or Lisu village, they will feel perfectly at home. Cultural similarities with Japanese are more surface level/macroscale, while cultural similarities with Tibeto-Burmans are at the core/microscale. So living habits, behaviors, etc. will more align between most Han Chinese and most Tibeto-Burmans than between most Han Chinese and Japanese. This even goes for culturally deviated groups like Tibetans imo. And the only reason Tibetans/Bhutanese deviate in genetics is because of their small Paniya-like input from pre-Tibetan himalayan plateau populations. This makes them look more distant on say a PCA than they would be. But the bulk of their genome is clearly from the same source as ancient Sinitics. I think most Chinese people don't realize just how Tibeto-Burman behaving and looking they are in reality. But once you take the Tibeto-Burman pill you will no longer worry about these retarded "north" "south" notions (ie. lumping in northern Chinese with goddamn Mongolians???)) In fact, I think, without elaborating too much in detail, people with your behavioral patterns (which judging from your online internet behavior is an archetype quite common in mainland Chinese) are more common in Tibeto-Burmans and Hmongs than in say Filipinos I admit that I don't know that much about lowland Tibeto-Burman cultures, but I don't think their culture is similar to Northern Chinese. I've seen many comments of Tibeto-Burman netizens from Northeast India on Youtube, and they seem to think that their culture is most similar with Southwest Chinese minorities like the Wa (which is Austroasiatic). I've never heard any of them claiming any cultural similarities with Northern or Central Chinese. Genetically most lowland Tibeto-Burmans are indeed quite northern-shifted similar to ancient Sinitics and modern Northern Chinese, though you have to understand that genetics and culture are different concepts and aren't necessarily closely aligned or related. But there are also some lowland Tibeto-Burmans, most notably the Burmese, that have received substantial SE Asian and South Asian input. It doesn't matter how you think Northern Chinese are close to lowland Tibeto-Burmans, both genetically and culturally I'd say the closest people to Northern Chinese are the Koreans. I know this might hurt your feelings, but you have to accept the truth. And yes, Northern Chinese and Inner Mongolians are also quite similar both in terms of genetics and culture, though Outer Mongolians or Khalka Mongols are slightly more distinct. For Far South Chinese from Lingnan on the other hand, their closest relatives are the Vietnamese as well as the various Tai-Kradai tribes in South China and SE Asia. These "north" and "south" notions indeed actually exist and they aren't retarded. Genetically, all Sinitic populations exist on a cline going from Korean/Japanese on the one end to SE Asians on the other end. I've debated with many Chinese Internet netizens and I think your behavior is much more typical of mainland Chinese especially mainland Northern Chinese than mine. Quite some Northern Chinese netizens tend to exaggerate their relation (be it genetic or cultural) with Tibeto-Burmans while ignoring or sometimes outright denying their relation with Manchus, Mongols, and Koreans / Japanese. And they also tend to relate Koreans / Japanese to SE Asians due to the fact that they perceive SE Asians as inferior therefore by relating Koreans / Japanese to SE Asians they think that they've put them down on their racial hierarchy. All these behaviors have been reflected in your comments. On the other hand, I've rarely seen mainland Chinese netizens having a favorable opinion towards FSC and SE Asians like mine. My opinion and behavior are rather unique for a mainland Chinese. My “behavior” tbh is actually very non-Chinese. Same with uisashi or oka. We exist outside of the agenda pushing wars you see on Chinese sites. To understand this, an analogy could be made as follows: - The hardware I run on is mostly Germanic, with a little Sinitic. - The hardware you run on is maybe half-and-half or leaning Sinitic. And the reason I keep pushing the Japanese - Austronesian connection is because it would be untruthful and dishonest to say otherwise. People who connect them too much to things like “West Liao River” “Amur” “Siberia” irritate me.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Dec 24, 2022 17:45:47 GMT
mnopsc1b Thoughts on this infographic I tried to make for the evolution of east asian phenotypes? *change “pleistocene” to “paleolithic” There're many things that I don't agree with your graph. First of all the original Neo-Mongoloids did not derive from Onge, instead they and Onge both derived from a common East Eurasian ancestor. And that ancestor most likely looked like San Bushmen with brownish skin, which in the case of Neo-Mongoloids became lighter due to living in a colder environment whereas in the case of Onge became darker due to living in a tropical environment. Second thing that I don't agree with you is the part of Neolithic advent of agriculture. The thing is Austronesians belong to the Southern East Asian lineage whereas both Japanese/Korean and Tibeto-Burmans belong to the Northern East Asian lineage, and these two diverged around 23,400 ybp according to molecular clock analysis, which was in the Paleolithic and not the Neolithic. Austronesian's closest relative is not Tibeto-Burman or Japanese/Korean but inland Southern East Asian or Austroasiatic, and the two diverged around 16,000 ybp. Third thing is the typical SE Asian phenotype shown in the graph is actually around 35% to 40% Onge and not 30%, 30% Onge is around the level of Far South Chinese. - on Khoisan: I considered this at first, but then realized that Khoi-san phenotypes were quite different from both East Asians and Onges structurally. Onges and East Asians are more similar in this regard. Khoi-san actually often look more like some pseudo-Mongoloid Scandinavians like Bjork. So my thought is that this ancestor likely resembled Onge the most but maybe with a bit lighter skin and different body type or monolids.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 24, 2022 18:07:32 GMT
I admit that I don't know that much about lowland Tibeto-Burman cultures, but I don't think their culture is similar to Northern Chinese. I've seen many comments of Tibeto-Burman netizens from Northeast India on Youtube, and they seem to think that their culture is most similar with Southwest Chinese minorities like the Wa (which is Austroasiatic). I've never heard any of them claiming any cultural similarities with Northern or Central Chinese. Genetically most lowland Tibeto-Burmans are indeed quite northern-shifted similar to ancient Sinitics and modern Northern Chinese, though you have to understand that genetics and culture are different concepts and aren't necessarily closely aligned or related. But there are also some lowland Tibeto-Burmans, most notably the Burmese, that have received substantial SE Asian and South Asian input. It doesn't matter how you think Northern Chinese are close to lowland Tibeto-Burmans, both genetically and culturally I'd say the closest people to Northern Chinese are the Koreans. I know this might hurt your feelings, but you have to accept the truth. And yes, Northern Chinese and Inner Mongolians are also quite similar both in terms of genetics and culture, though Outer Mongolians or Khalka Mongols are slightly more distinct. For Far South Chinese from Lingnan on the other hand, their closest relatives are the Vietnamese as well as the various Tai-Kradai tribes in South China and SE Asia. These "north" and "south" notions indeed actually exist and they aren't retarded. Genetically, all Sinitic populations exist on a cline going from Korean/Japanese on the one end to SE Asians on the other end. I've debated with many Chinese Internet netizens and I think your behavior is much more typical of mainland Chinese especially mainland Northern Chinese than mine. Quite some Northern Chinese netizens tend to exaggerate their relation (be it genetic or cultural) with Tibeto-Burmans while ignoring or sometimes outright denying their relation with Manchus, Mongols, and Koreans / Japanese. And they also tend to relate Koreans / Japanese to SE Asians due to the fact that they perceive SE Asians as inferior therefore by relating Koreans / Japanese to SE Asians they think that they've put them down on their racial hierarchy. All these behaviors have been reflected in your comments. On the other hand, I've rarely seen mainland Chinese netizens having a favorable opinion towards FSC and SE Asians like mine. My opinion and behavior are rather unique for a mainland Chinese. My “behavior” tbh is actually very non-Chinese. Same with uisashi or oka. We exist outside of the agenda pushing wars you see on Chinese sites. To understand this, an analogy could be made as follows: - The hardware I run on is mostly Germanic, with a little Sinitic. - The hardware you run on is maybe half-and-half or leaning Sinitic. And the reason I keep pushing the Japanese - Austronesian connection is because it would be untruthful and dishonest to say otherwise. People who connect them too much to things like “West Liao River” “Amur” “Siberia” irritate me. It doesn't matter which keyboard or hardware you use, your behavior is still very typical of mainland Chinese especially Northern Chinese. Much of what you said here I've heard it already on Chinese forums like Tieba or Zhihu. It looks like that you've taken the same comments from those places and just translated them into English. It irritates me that people like you keep pushing for a Japanese - Austronesian connection cause that's definitely not the truth. According to G25 table, Japanese only have around 5.8% TW_Hanben like component, which is the same as the Northern Chinese average, but much lower than the Chinese average at 27.4%. If Japanese can be considered as Austronesian based on such low levels of Austronesian components, then most if not all Chinese can be considered as Austronesian as well by your logic, yet I rarely see people pushing for a Chinese - Austronesian connection. On the other hand, their Devil's Gate component is at 21.8%, several times higher than their Hanben component, and it would be utterly dishonest to say that they have no connection to WLR or Amur.
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 24, 2022 18:15:37 GMT
There're many things that I don't agree with your graph. First of all the original Neo-Mongoloids did not derive from Onge, instead they and Onge both derived from a common East Eurasian ancestor. And that ancestor most likely looked like San Bushmen with brownish skin, which in the case of Neo-Mongoloids became lighter due to living in a colder environment whereas in the case of Onge became darker due to living in a tropical environment. Second thing that I don't agree with you is the part of Neolithic advent of agriculture. The thing is Austronesians belong to the Southern East Asian lineage whereas both Japanese/Korean and Tibeto-Burmans belong to the Northern East Asian lineage, and these two diverged around 23,400 ybp according to molecular clock analysis, which was in the Paleolithic and not the Neolithic. Austronesian's closest relative is not Tibeto-Burman or Japanese/Korean but inland Southern East Asian or Austroasiatic, and the two diverged around 16,000 ybp. Third thing is the typical SE Asian phenotype shown in the graph is actually around 35% to 40% Onge and not 30%, 30% Onge is around the level of Far South Chinese. - on Khoisan: I considered this at first, but then realized that Khoi-san phenotypes were quite different from both East Asians and Onges structurally. Onges and East Asians are more similar in this regard. Khoi-san actually often look more like some pseudo-Mongoloid Scandinavians like Bjork. So my thought is that this ancestor likely resembled Onge the most but maybe with a bit lighter skin and different body type or monolids. Phenotype and genotype don't have an exactly 1-on-1 match. Onge people look like Africans if judging by phenotype alone, yet we all know that genetically they're largely East Eurasian and are quite distinct from Africans. The thing is Khoisan people are proven to be the oldest Homo Sapien lineage carrying the oldest haplogroups, therefore chances are high that our original ancestors would resemble them than to derived populations like the Onge.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Dec 24, 2022 20:08:07 GMT
Mnops Throw isn't even genetically northern Chinese nor does he have this bias. Just because someone has an opinion about something different from yours, it doesn't mean it's biased or because he has an agenda.
Culturally and behaviour wise, northern Chinese and sinitics in general have little similarities to Koreans and Mongolians. In phenotype, the most "Sinotibetan" regions of China e.g north Shanxi, has more structural similarity to some Tibetoburman groups rather than Koreans.
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 24, 2022 20:39:12 GMT
Mnops Throw isn't even genetically northern Chinese nor does he have this bias. Just because someone has an opinion about something different from yours, it doesn't mean it's biased or because he has an agenda. Culturally and behaviour wise, northern Chinese and sinitics in general have little similarities to Koreans and Mongolians. In phenotype, the most "Sinotibetan" regions of China e.g north Shanxi, has more structural similarity to some Tibetoburman groups rather than Koreans. It doesn't matter if he is genetically Northern Chinese, the fact remains that his opinion is closely aligned to those retarded Huang Han sinocentrists that I've seen on Tieba and Zhihu. And I'm not against him because he has a different opinion from mine, I'm against him because he is being subjective and is deliberately lying and is not telling the truth. Northern Chinese, culturally speaking, is very very similar to Koreans and Inner Mongolians, all three have a heavy drinking culture and a hot temper. In phenotype, the majority of Northern Chinese (except the few in the far west like Gansu or Ningxia) also has much more in common with Koreans than with Tibetans or Burmese. Genetically speaking, Northern Chinese are quite close to Koreans, closer than they're to Tibetans and to Burmese. Tibetans have some Pariya-like components which push them slightly further away from Northern Chinese.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Dec 24, 2022 20:58:33 GMT
It doesn't matter if he is genetically Northern Chinese, the fact remains that his opinion is closely aligned to those retarded Huang Han sinocentrists that I've seen on Tieba and Zhihu. And I'm not against him because he has a different opinion from mine, I'm against him because he is being subjective and is deliberating lying and is not telling the truth. Northern Chinese, culturally speaking, is very very similar to Koreans and Inner Mongolians, all three have a heavy drinking culture and a hot temper. In phenotype, the majority of Northern Chinese (except the few in the far west like Gansu or Ningxia) also has much more in common with Koreans than with Tibetans or Burmese. Genetically speaking, Northern Chinese are quite close to Koreans, closer than they're to Tibetans and to Burmese. Tibetans have some Pariya-like components which push them slightly further away from Northern Chinese. Hot temper is not necessarily a northern-shifted personality trait. In fact from my experience southwest Chinese and Hmongs have the worst tempers. Hmong-Americans often break out into fights when provoked or to settle disputes (compilation here).
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 24, 2022 21:23:04 GMT
It doesn't matter if he is genetically Northern Chinese, the fact remains that his opinion is closely aligned to those retarded Huang Han sinocentrists that I've seen on Tieba and Zhihu. And I'm not against him because he has a different opinion from mine, I'm against him because he is being subjective and is deliberating lying and is not telling the truth. Northern Chinese, culturally speaking, is very very similar to Koreans and Inner Mongolians, all three have a heavy drinking culture and a hot temper. In phenotype, the majority of Northern Chinese (except the few in the far west like Gansu or Ningxia) also has much more in common with Koreans than with Tibetans or Burmese. Genetically speaking, Northern Chinese are quite close to Koreans, closer than they're to Tibetans and to Burmese. Tibetans have some Pariya-like components which push them slightly further away from Northern Chinese. Hot temper is not necessarily a northern-shifted personality trait. In fact from my experience southwest Chinese and Hmongs have the worst tempers. Hmong-Americans often break out into fights when provoked or to settle disputes (compilation here). It's true that certain Southwest Chinese and Hmongs can have hot tempers, but they still pale in comparison to Northern Chinese particularly Northeastern Chinese, who would lose their temper at the slightest provocation, and sometimes even without particular reason. And in Hmong American's case I can give them some leeway, since they are mostly wartime refugees from Vietnam and Laos, they have been persecuted in their home countries for collaborating with the Americans, and they continue to face racism, discrimination, and poverty even after they arrived in the US. I don't think you would still keep a good temper if you were in their shoes. And not to mention that Hmongs aren't native to Far South China and SE Asia they originated from Central China and only migrated to their present locations within the past 100 - 200 years. Daic, Austronesian, and Austroasiatic peoples that are native to the region tend to have a much better temper and laid-back attitude.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Dec 24, 2022 21:55:28 GMT
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 24, 2022 22:24:31 GMT
I've watched the first clip and I think the majority of them can pass as Koreans, only a selective few look somewhat distinct. Maybe Nara can have a better insight on this than me, but unfortunately she's not here. And there's a government or military official at around 0:39 of the first video (the one shaking hands with a soldier) that looks very similar to Mongolian.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Dec 24, 2022 23:48:02 GMT
I think that is just a pan-hmong-east asian type that passes everywhere, including on Tibetans
Growth pattern is important to notice. E.g what would obese beijingers look like if they grew up in some poverty farm? My guess is that they would end up narrow faced.
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