mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Nov 17, 2022 2:06:08 GMT
Asians are fundamentally descended from OOA migrants, so we can say that Asians look like Africans, period. No need to dissect further. Northern Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Austronesian, Austroasiatic, Onge, you name it, are all Africans.
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
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Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Nov 17, 2022 16:18:50 GMT
Asians are fundamentally descended from OOA migrants, so we can say that Asians look like Africans, period. No need to dissect further. Northern Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Austronesian, Austroasiatic, Onge, you name it, are all Africans. Many Eurasians are mixed between different waves, but many east asians are directly from Onge (and look like EDAR'd Onges)
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
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Post by throway2 on Nov 17, 2022 16:20:45 GMT
BTW mnopsc1b this is off topic But how common are phenotypes with flat nose + thick lips in Beijing/Central Hebei? Recently I have been looking at more types from this region and noticed that such types were oddly commonplace... Some of them look rather archaic imo
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Nov 19, 2022 0:57:26 GMT
BTW mnopsc1b this is off topic But how common are phenotypes with flat nose + thick lips in Beijing/Central Hebei? Recently I have been looking at more types from this region and noticed that such types were oddly commonplace... Some of them look rather archaic imo You see? If you could have this type of discussion attitude instead of blindly assuming that Austronesians are special because they related to NEA (which they ultimately are but their closest relative is Inland Southern East Asian AKA Ancestral Austroasiatic) whereas all the rest of southerners (Austroasiatic, Onge, etc.) are ugly, then we can have a normal discussion. I apologize I was also a bit aggressive earlier by claiming that I'll ignore you, now I'll temporarily discard my earlier words, unless you start blindly assuming things again. I'll first answer your question about the Onge. No, modern East Asians do not directly descend from Onge, I don't know where you got such information. Instead, the Onge, just like Tianyuan, Longlin, Hoabinhian, and Jomon, is a divergent early East Eurasian branch that had diverged from the direct ancestors of modern East Asians around 40,000 years ago, and then went their own ways. The earliest OOA migrants or the earliest East Eurasians probably weren't Onge-like but were more Khoisan or San Bushmen like, the Onge appearance is likely a later adaptation to the jungle environment they're living in, just like the paler skin of modern East Asians is also a later adaptation. Now I'll answer your second question about the phenotype of Beijing/Central Hebei. I wouldn't say thick lips are that common in this region (though such feature can certainly be found there) but judging by my observations I think flat noses are more common in this region (and in Northern China as a whole) than what a lot of people would like to assume, perhaps even more common than in Far South China. I really think that Far South Chinese have received a lot of unfair and unjust flaks on the Chinese Internet. I've known a lot of Far South Chinese from different ethnic groups (Han, Miao, Zhuang, Dai, etc.) and I think compared to other Chinese their nose bridge isn't that flat but rather average. They do generally have larger eyes, wider mouth, and slightly thicker lips than Northern and Central Chinese, but I don't think their noses are flat. I'd say I've probably seen more flat noses among people from Beijing/Central Hebei and Henan/Shandong than among Far South Chinese. And yes, some Beijing/Central Hebei people can look quite archaic with their low foreheads and flat back of the head, I think they're much more archaic looking than the Far South Chinese I've seen.
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uisashi
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Tea Botany Expert
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Post by uisashi on Nov 19, 2022 2:05:34 GMT
MNOPs you need to stop jumping to conclusions and assuming we're some northern supremecists. None of us even think northerners look good or even better than southerners. Look man I don't give a rat's ass about this retarded Dongbei/Shandong vs Guangdong war that you and other Zhihutards are involved. I just care about objective anthrotarding and I point out what I see.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Nov 19, 2022 3:22:23 GMT
MNOPs you need to stop jumping to conclusions and assuming we're some northern supremecists. None of us even think northerners look good or even better than southerners. Look man I don't give a rat's ass about this retarded Dongbei/Shandong vs Guangdong war that you and other Zhihutards are involved. I just care about objective anthrotarding and I point out what I see. First of all, I don't use Zhihu or Tieba anymore I quit those sites a long time ago, you have no reason to call me a Zhihutard. And secondly, while you and throway didn't explicitly say that southerners are ugly, you certainly implied that by saying that some good-looking Austronesian gracile/narrow features are due to NEA influence whereas Austroasiatic and Onge look less pleasant. This is definitely northern supremacist, cause it's not objective at all. Genetics have already proven that Austronesian and Austroasiatic are quite closely related, they only diverged around 16 kya, which is very recent in terms of human evolution. Don't call yourself objective when you have such northern supremacist tendencies, the truth is gracile types exist in all populations and aren't unique to NEA. In fact, I don't even think NEA are that gracile, at least not by Asian standards. I definitely think that Far South Chinese and SE Asians are on average more gracile than NEA.
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
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Post by throway2 on Nov 19, 2022 5:47:01 GMT
When did we say this? 1) I suggest that so-called "NEA" (Koreans, Japanese) is actually due to Austronesian-like influence rather than the other way around. Ie. the base of the "NEA" phenotype is mostly something that looks similar to northern Austronesians. Japanese in particular (purer "NEA" with little Sino-Tibetan) actually have more Onge/Austroasiatic-like faces than northern Austronesians do. Many Japanese females literally look like depigmented Onge/Jarawa 2) You seem to be assuming that we find such features "more attractive". I have suggested nothing of the sort.
Perhaps you are personally biased towards agrarian dispersal phenotypes?
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uisashi
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Tea Botany Expert
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Post by uisashi on Nov 19, 2022 6:03:04 GMT
I don't even think Japanese/Koreans are even gracile, they are probably naturally more robust than any Sinitic population you'd find. I also don't think gracile/robust even makes someone look better or worse.
Tbh I honestly don't really see a big difference in "robustness" between any population in the world. I'm personally of the belief that if you raise different groups in the same environment, they'll all start converging and have similar growth patterns.
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Dec 19, 2022 7:05:28 GMT
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 20, 2022 3:20:27 GMT
When did we say this? 1) I suggest that so-called "NEA" (Koreans, Japanese) is actually due to Austronesian-like influence rather than the other way around. Ie. the base of the "NEA" phenotype is mostly something that looks similar to northern Austronesians. Japanese in particular (purer "NEA" with little Sino-Tibetan) actually have more Onge/Austroasiatic-like faces than northern Austronesians do. Many Japanese females literally look like depigmented Onge/Jarawa 2) You seem to be assuming that we find such features "more attractive". I have suggested nothing of the sort. Perhaps you are personally biased towards agrarian dispersal phenotypes? 1) The Austronesian component among Koreans and Japanese is quite low, around the same level as Northern Chinese or perhaps lower. I don't think NEA and Austronesians are that similar looking, the common ancestor of the two had already diverged around 23,000 ybp. And Japanese don't look like Austroasiatic/Onge either. Onge diverged from the ancestors of modern East Asians even earlier around 40,000 ybp. 2) Then why you and uisashi have continuously claimed that NEA like Northern Chinese and Mongols are the most gracile out of all East and SE Asians? It's obviously not the case, even people who only have a basic understanding of East Asian phenotypes can tell that you guys are lying.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 20, 2022 3:28:16 GMT
Not exactly the most typical look for Western GD and GX, though typical enough that I won't consider her to come from any other region outside of Lingnan if you ask me to guess. For the language part, I heard that it's easier for Cantonese speakers from Western GD and GX to understand standard Cantonese spoken in Guangzhou and HK than vice-versa.
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
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Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Dec 20, 2022 8:49:54 GMT
1) The Austronesian component among Koreans and Japanese is quite low, around the same level as Northern Chinese or perhaps lower. I don't think NEA and Austronesians are that similar looking, the common ancestor of the two had already diverged around 23,000 ybp. And Japanese don't look like Austroasiatic/Onge either. Onge diverged from the ancestors of modern East Asians even earlier around 40,000 ybp. 2) Then why you and uisashi have continuously claimed that NEA like Northern Chinese and Mongols are the most gracile out of all East and SE Asians? It's obviously not the case, even people who only have a basic understanding of East Asian phenotypes can tell that you guys are lying. 1) What is considered "Austronesian" (based on TWN_Hanben, etc.) became significantly admixed with Onge after reaching Taiwan. It would be like using a Hubei person to denote a "Sinitic" component. Groups like Filipinos are even more admixed, at ~20% more Onge than Taiwanese Aborigines. The original Austronesian, from all evidence, was most likely an rice/millet mixed agriculturalist population living in the region of southeastern Shandong and Jiangsu. This then migrated down along the seaboard, admixing with local groups and eventually becoming Taiwanese aboriginals. It may be that Japanese were not exactly Austronesian, but a group right next to it (the original Austronesian) and very similar in most respects. 2) Anyone with a working eye can see that northern Chinese and Mongols are the most gracile. Also, I don't consider northern Chinese, let alone Mongols, to be "NEA". I consider northern Chinese to be lowland Tibeto-Burmans, rather than something related to say Japanese.
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
Posts: 206
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Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Dec 20, 2022 8:54:24 GMT
An image from Tokyo. Look at that Japanese man in the front/middle. If that is not a core Austronesian phenotype, I don't know what is. Compare him to the likely SEA Chinese tourists behind him. He is much more Austronesian looking than they are.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 20, 2022 13:55:37 GMT
1) The Austronesian component among Koreans and Japanese is quite low, around the same level as Northern Chinese or perhaps lower. I don't think NEA and Austronesians are that similar looking, the common ancestor of the two had already diverged around 23,000 ybp. And Japanese don't look like Austroasiatic/Onge either. Onge diverged from the ancestors of modern East Asians even earlier around 40,000 ybp. 2) Then why you and uisashi have continuously claimed that NEA like Northern Chinese and Mongols are the most gracile out of all East and SE Asians? It's obviously not the case, even people who only have a basic understanding of East Asian phenotypes can tell that you guys are lying. 1) What is considered "Austronesian" (based on TWN_Hanben, etc.) became significantly admixed with Onge after reaching Taiwan. It would be like using a Hubei person to denote a "Sinitic" component. Groups like Filipinos are even more admixed, at ~20% more Onge than Taiwanese Aborigines. The original Austronesian, from all evidence, was most likely an rice/millet mixed agriculturalist population living in the region of southeastern Shandong and Jiangsu. This then migrated down along the seaboard, admixing with local groups and eventually becoming Taiwanese aboriginals. It may be that Japanese were not exactly Austronesian, but a group right next to it (the original Austronesian) and very similar in most respects. 2) Anyone with a working eye can see that northern Chinese and Mongols are the most gracile. Also, I don't consider northern Chinese, let alone Mongols, to be "NEA". I consider northern Chinese to be lowland Tibeto-Burmans, rather than something related to say Japanese. 1) Proof that TW_Hanben is significantly admixed with Onge? According to genetic analysis, Southern East Asians derive 81% of their ancestry from a Tianyuan-like ancestor and 19% from an Onge-like ancestor, and for Northern East Asians the numbers are around 89% and 11%, the difference isn't that big. Genetically speaking, Austronesian-like people had formed in Neolithic Fujian, not Neolithic Shandong. 2) Anyone with a working eye can tell that Far South Chinese and SE Asians are on average more gracile than Northern Chinese and Mongols. And the majority of Northern Chinese are definitely closer to Japanese and Koreans than to Burmese or Tibetans (I mean both genetically and culturally).
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 363
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 20, 2022 14:07:22 GMT
An image from Tokyo. Look at that Japanese man in the front/middle. If that is not a core Austronesian phenotype, I don't know what is. Compare him to the likely SEA Chinese tourists behind him. He is much more Austronesian looking than they are. But how do you know that the man in the middle is pure Japanese while those at his back are tourists from SEA? You're being subjective. And one man cannot represent all Japanese. He could be mixed (yes there are indeed some mixed people in Japan). The majority of Japanese don't look like him. Try to find some group photos of Japanese students or politicians. And not to mention that the few slightly "western" looking Japanese are more likely due to Jomon influences and not Austronesian influences. On the other hand, there are many SEA Chinese that look Austronesian, like the Peranakans who have mixed with local people. Really you're full of biases and lies.
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