mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 359
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Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Nov 19, 2022 1:16:42 GMT
New video from Vice, 9-year-old Japanese girl forced by her mother to get double-eyelid surgery.
Regarding plastic surgery, I've often seen Koreans being criticized or ridiculed for having the most plastic surgery and are the "ugliest Asians" on Chinese discussion boards and also on other Asian discussion boards (mainly Taiwanese and Japanese). But I think this is unfair flak, as unfair as the flak received by Far South Chinese because of their appearance. While I'm not denying that a lot of Koreans do indeed get plastic surgery, other nearby Asian countries like Japan, China, and Taiwan etc. aren't that far behind and plastic surgery is quite popular in those places too. This video revealed by Vice is probably just a tip of the iceberg; the true scale of Japanese plastic surgery might be a lot larger, as I've heard that even AV porno actors and actresses are required to get plastic surgery. And a lot of Korean plastic surgery agencies are actually catering to overseas patients mainly from China, Japan, and other Asian countries.
The reason why modern Japanese look more ambiguous, Pan-Asian, or vaguely more "southern" compared to the Japanese from a few generations ago is likely not because of some "Jomon revival" or "large influx of people from SE Asia to Japan", but rather because of the booming plastic surgery industry as well as skin tanning (tanning hasn't got a foothold in other Asian countries but it has received some acceptance in Japan).
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
Posts: 206
Likes: 28
Ethnic Heritage: hmongid
Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Nov 19, 2022 5:51:47 GMT
You focus too much on eyes... one look at Japanese facial structures and you could easily tell that many are clearly northern Austronesian-like
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
Posts: 206
Likes: 28
Ethnic Heritage: hmongid
Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Nov 27, 2022 19:21:53 GMT
Clusters in terms of aesthetic body modification practices in Asia- Teeth blackening- primarily practiced by Austronesian, Austroasiatic, Kra-dai, ancient Baiyue and Japonic peoples. Spread to populations like Tibeto-Burmans living in southeast Asia, and across Oceania through proximity to the aforementioned groups. Not practiced by Tungusics, Mongolics, Turkics, northern Sino-Tibetans or even in Korea. www.itourvn.com/images/easyblog_articles/620/b2ap3_large_the-beauty-trend-behind-black-teeth-in-vietnam-cover.jpgVietnamese woman on right with blackened teeth. www.cvltnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/5739990438_5eba6ec3bd_b.jpgJapanese woman with ohaguro
Tattooing- primarily practiced by Austronesian and Austronesian dispersal-adjacent populations, as well as Japonic and southern Koreanic peoples. Intricate tattoo patterns were noted by Chinese travelers to Kyushu already during the Yayoi period. Historical texts show that tattooing was practiced by southern Korean fishermen/divers. In the Book of Rites, it was recorded that the historical Dongyi people practiced body tattooing. Not practiced by Tungusics, Mongolics, Turkics, northern Sino-tibetans. Interestingly however, also practiced in the Americas. images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57825361440243db4a4b7830/1641345843107-K7TBVJAG4N1AH2V4254Z/241157474_809496759724560_813009168424461695_n.jpg?format=2500wYakuza members with irezumi
www.canberratimes.com.au/images/transform/v1/crop/frm/silverstone-feed-data/01ea5b52-8ddc-4926-901c-e34d618c7e08.jpg/r0_0_800_600_w800_h600_fmax.jpg
Maori man with tattoos
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
Posts: 206
Likes: 28
Ethnic Heritage: hmongid
Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Nov 28, 2022 20:14:48 GMT
She looks very structurally similar to some amount of Taiwanese aboriginals. Comparisons to Koreans don't really say much because Koreans are overtly Austronesian as well If you took a TW abo, mixed it with something like 10% Evenki, you'd achieve her exact face. But the base/underlying structure is obviously not from the Evenki part LOL you gotta be joking, she doesn't look Taiwanese aborigine at all. Her eyes and facial structure are clearly different from Fan's. She has very light eyebrows, smaller eyes, and her eyebrows are set quite far apart from her eyes, unlike Fan who has thick and bushy eyebrows that are set very close to the eyes. And Japanese aren't just 10% Northern, they have at least 1/3 Amur-related genome. MNOPS I have recently acquired data on eyebrow heights in various East Asian populations (although I don't have any on Japanese) (Data sent to me by another forum user, from sources 1) Cheboksarov N.N. 1982. Etnicheskaya antropologiya Kitaya 2) Miklashevskaya NN (1968) Sex distinction in the cephalic growth of children and adolescents of different races. Proc 8th Intern Cong Anthrop Ethn Sc 1–8) in mm, referring to distance between supraorbitale and sellion Liaodong Han: 14,22 northern Shandong Han: 11,58 Shanxi Han in Moscow and Hui in Kyrgyzia: 9,9 each Hainanese: 9,5 Hlai: 9,2 Hainan Kimmun: 8,9 Guangzhou Han: 7,6 Liannan Zaomin: 6,8 Liannan Hakka: 6,7 Utsul: 5,9 Here, we can see that high eyebrows are actually moreso a very region-specific feature (probably peaking in Jiaoliao, some koreans/japanese/northern Jiangsu also) rather than something that is "northern" Shanxi Han, who are closer to "original northern sinitics" actually cluster closer to Hainanese and Hlai than to Liaodong Han. In fact, Shanxi Han are actually even slightly closer to Utsuls than they are to Liaodong Han
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
Posts: 206
Likes: 28
Ethnic Heritage: hmongid
Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Nov 29, 2022 2:19:49 GMT
MNOPS I have recently acquired data on eyebrow heights in various East Asian populations (although I don't have any on Japanese) An update to the data- North Koreans from Hamgyong according to Debec 1951 have a measurement of 7.5mm. This is lower than Guangzhou Han. Kamchatka Itelmens have a value of only 5.7mm, which is even lower than Utsuls. Buryat Mongols are ~9.9mm which is similar to Shanxi Han, Hainanese, and Hlai However, Japanese tend to cluster around Shandong Han values (range from 11-15mm)
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 359
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 3, 2022 3:19:54 GMT
Clusters in terms of aesthetic body modification practices in Asia- Teeth blackening- primarily practiced by Austronesian, Austroasiatic, Kra-dai, ancient Baiyue and Japonic peoples. Spread to populations like Tibeto-Burmans living in southeast Asia, and across Oceania through proximity to the aforementioned groups. Not practiced by Tungusics, Mongolics, Turkics, northern Sino-Tibetans or even in Korea. www.itourvn.com/images/easyblog_articles/620/b2ap3_large_the-beauty-trend-behind-black-teeth-in-vietnam-cover.jpgVietnamese woman on right with blackened teeth. www.cvltnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/5739990438_5eba6ec3bd_b.jpgJapanese woman with ohaguro
Tattooing- primarily practiced by Austronesian and Austronesian dispersal-adjacent populations, as well as Japonic and southern Koreanic peoples. Intricate tattoo patterns were noted by Chinese travelers to Kyushu already during the Yayoi period. Historical texts show that tattooing was practiced by southern Korean fishermen/divers. In the Book of Rites, it was recorded that the historical Dongyi people practiced body tattooing. Not practiced by Tungusics, Mongolics, Turkics, northern Sino-tibetans. Interestingly however, also practiced in the Americas. images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/57825361440243db4a4b7830/1641345843107-K7TBVJAG4N1AH2V4254Z/241157474_809496759724560_813009168424461695_n.jpg?format=2500wYakuza members with irezumi
www.canberratimes.com.au/images/transform/v1/crop/frm/silverstone-feed-data/01ea5b52-8ddc-4926-901c-e34d618c7e08.jpg/r0_0_800_600_w800_h600_fmax.jpg
Maori man with tattoos You know what, cultures and customs aren't that reliable when determining population relatedness. Just because two populations sharing a few similar customs doesn't mean they ought to be closely related or have any relation at all. Cultures and customs can spread far and wide across different and unrelated populations. To give an example from the ancient world, we know that ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hittites, Assyrians, and ancient Sinitic people all used chariots in warfare, but obviously ancient Sinitic people weren't closely related genetically to ancient Egyptians or Babylonians. To give another example from the modern world, modern Chinese youth and American youth all like to play with their iPhones and iPads and all like watching TikTok/Douyin, but can we say that they are also closely related genetically? Of course not. I think the most likely cause for teeth blackening and teeth pulling being shared between ancient Japonic/Koreanic and ancient Baiyue/Austronesian peoples is because both had been influenced by Neolithic Lower Yellow River cultures from Shandong. These customs most likely originated from the Neolithic Dawenkou culture and then spread both to the north (to Liaoning where the proto-Koreanic/Japonic peoples lived) and to the south (to the Lower Yangtse region and further south where the ancestors of Austronesians/Kradai/Austroasiatic peoples dwelled). There's archaeological evidence for the spread of northern items and products to the south along the eastern coast of China, jade, millet, and rice had all spread south along such a route. By 4,000 years BP cultures in Far South China, Taiwan, and SE Asia all possessed northern influences like jade, millet, and rice. However, the peoples at the opposite ends of such cultural spreads or exchanges aren't necessarily related. The Neolithic Fujian samples from 7 to 8 kya like Qihe and Liangdao already possessed genetic profiles similar to modern Austronesians, indicating that Austronesians were likely the native inhabitants of southeastern China. Austronesian, Tai-Kradai, and Austroasiatic peoples are all primarily descended from ancestral Southern East Asians, and this group had already diverged from ancestral Northern East Asians (the ancestors of Sino-Tibetans, Mongolic, Tungusic, and Koreanic and Japonic peoples) around 20,000 ybp. By 14,000 ybp at the latest (the date of the Mengzi Ren sample which belonged to Southern East Asian) ancestral Southern East Asians were already in Southern China. In brief, culturally speaking Koreanic/Japonic peoples and Austronesian/Kradai/Austroasiatic peoples might share a few similar customs due to being influenced by a common cultural source (the Dawenkou), genetically speaking the two groups are quite distinct. To give an even more pertinent example, the ancient Sinitic culture had heavily influenced Korea, Japan, and Vietnam, but can we say that all three peoples are very closely related to the ancient Sinitic people genetically? Of course not. And I won't even mention tattooing cause it's widely practiced by Native Americans (various tribes), ancient Europeans (the Celts primarily but also others), and Africans (various tribes), I think it's a common human trait to decorate our body with paints and patterns. I don't think it constitutes a particular trait of the Baiyue. Judging by this logic one can also say that the teeth jobs may also arise out of necessity since the ancient peoples just like us used their teeth very often and it doesn't take a genius to realize that teeth decay really fast if one doesn't care about them, hence putting some medicinal herbs in your teeth or teeth blackening might be the earliest form of toothpaste, and different peoples may have independently came to the same conclusions regardless of whether they were northerners or southerners. I think there's a need to view culture and genetics separately cause these two aren't necessarily related.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 359
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 3, 2022 3:42:45 GMT
LOL you gotta be joking, she doesn't look Taiwanese aborigine at all. Her eyes and facial structure are clearly different from Fan's. She has very light eyebrows, smaller eyes, and her eyebrows are set quite far apart from her eyes, unlike Fan who has thick and bushy eyebrows that are set very close to the eyes. And Japanese aren't just 10% Northern, they have at least 1/3 Amur-related genome. MNOPS I have recently acquired data on eyebrow heights in various East Asian populations (although I don't have any on Japanese) (Data sent to me by another forum user, from sources 1) Cheboksarov N.N. 1982. Etnicheskaya antropologiya Kitaya 2) Miklashevskaya NN (1968) Sex distinction in the cephalic growth of children and adolescents of different races. Proc 8th Intern Cong Anthrop Ethn Sc 1–8) in mm, referring to distance between supraorbitale and sellion Liaodong Han: 14,22 northern Shandong Han: 11,58 Shanxi Han in Moscow and Hui in Kyrgyzia: 9,9 each Hainanese: 9,5 Hlai: 9,2 Hainan Kimmun: 8,9 Guangzhou Han: 7,6 Liannan Zaomin: 6,8 Liannan Hakka: 6,7 Utsul: 5,9 Here, we can see that high eyebrows are actually moreso a very region-specific feature (probably peaking in Jiaoliao, some koreans/japanese/northern Jiangsu also) rather than something that is "northern" Shanxi Han, who are closer to "original northern sinitics" actually cluster closer to Hainanese and Hlai than to Liaodong Han. In fact, Shanxi Han are actually even slightly closer to Utsuls than they are to Liaodong Han First of all, thanks for providing the data. Data about various anthropological measurements of East and SE Asians is extremely hard to come by on English forums, and I wonder where the guy found it. I never said that all northerners ought to have very high eyebrows, of course there ought to be some outliers. But as a general rule of thumb, yes Southern East Asians (Far South Chinese and SE Asians) do indeed generally possess lower-set eyebrows than Northern East Asians (Northern Chinese from Shandong/Liaoning, Koreans, and Japanese). Your data has also demonstrated this. Hainanese, who have the highest-set eyebrows in your data among southern groups at 9.5, is still significantly lower than Liaoning Han at 14.22. And if you look at other southern groups then the gap is even larger. There's nothing to be ashamed of having smaller eyes and higher-set eyebrows, you northerners have to admit it and live with it.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 359
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 3, 2022 3:47:49 GMT
MNOPS I have recently acquired data on eyebrow heights in various East Asian populations (although I don't have any on Japanese) An update to the data- North Koreans from Hamgyong according to Debec 1951 have a measurement of 7.5mm. This is lower than Guangzhou Han. Kamchatka Itelmens have a value of only 5.7mm, which is even lower than Utsuls. Buryat Mongols are ~9.9mm which is similar to Shanxi Han, Hainanese, and Hlai However, Japanese tend to cluster around Shandong Han values (range from 11-15mm) Guangzhou Han is too metropolitan and might not be a good representative of Southern East Asian, but still, I wouldn't consider 7.6mm high, cause it's significantly lower than Shandong Han and Japanese. Apart from the Itelmens and Hamgyong Koreans in your data, all other northern groups have higher eyebrows than the southern groups, and this already constitutes a pattern.
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throway2
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Fengshui Professional
Posts: 206
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Ethnic Heritage: hmongid
Gender Identity: austronesian
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Post by throway2 on Dec 23, 2022 23:02:08 GMT
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2245640/Ritual suicide was apparently traditionally found in Indonesians. Sound familiar? Additionally, traditionally both Austronesian and Japonic societies were organized in "houses" rather than "lineages" (ie. actual geneology matters less to join a "family" compared to say Sinitics, who were very focused on patrilineages). Japonics and Austronesians are both militarized, peer-oriented societies as well (eg. one could draw comparisons between Japanese corporate culture to an Austronesian war band)
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
Posts: 359
Likes: 67
Ethnic Heritage: Southwest Chinese
Gender Identity: Daic
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Post by mnopsc1b on Dec 24, 2022 17:19:05 GMT
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2245640/Ritual suicide was apparently traditionally found in Indonesians. Sound familiar? Additionally, traditionally both Austronesian and Japonic societies were organized in "houses" rather than "lineages" (ie. actual geneology matters less to join a "family" compared to say Sinitics, who were very focused on patrilineages). Japonics and Austronesians are both militarized, peer-oriented societies as well (eg. one could draw comparisons between Japanese corporate culture to an Austronesian war band) Again, certain cultural similarities can be coincidental, cultural traits aren't the best way to indicate population relatedness as they can spread far and wide way beyond the scope of their original creators. Japanese and Koreans share far more cultural similarities with Chinese than with Austronesians (like Hanja/Kanji, chopsticks, Chinese loanwords, and many others), and by your logic they should be considered as Chinese. Genetically, Northern Chinese are also far closer to Koreans and Japanese than any Austronesian group by a long shot.
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