uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jan 15, 2023 13:24:12 GMT
ABCs from America and Australia are heavily weeb/kweeb with probs 50% of the males being anime addicts. Anime somehow is just naturally relatable to most western Asians. Wait how Chinese are Thai-Chinese? Like on average can they speak Chinese or have an understanding of their heritage? Same thing with Chinese Thais. A lot love Japanese anime and Korean stuff. Many especially the upper and higher middle class Sino-Thais are also proficient in English, even Japanese and to lesser extent, Korean as their families often encourage them to go study for their undergraduate or masters in the West or Japan. Very little especially those who are 40s and younger onwards. Most younger generations can't speak/understand or their ancestral languages (Hainanese, Teochew, Hokkien, etc) at all. It's mainly the older generations can speak their mother tongue or Mandarin, most of who are now in their late 70s to 80 upwards, which is before the closing of Chinese schools by the Siamese government at the time. But there are also exceptions such as those of my grandma, who despite being in her 80s can only speak Thai as her family is very assimilated and comes from a much earlier wave of Chinese migrants. And then there are many elderly who understand and speak only their ancestral languages/dialects but don't know any Mandarin. Chinese-Thais only speak Thai among themselves especially the my dad generation onwards. Most have Thai names, are Theravada Buddhists, eat mostly Thai food, use fork and spoon. Many also identify only as Thai especially the younger generations. There are still some who still perform ancestor worship and celebrate holidays such as Chinese New Year and giving red envelope even if they can't speak Chinese and only practiced Thai culture/customs. I have a feeling that in the next generation, ethnic Chinese will disappear as a distinct ethnicity in Thailand as all have become totally Siamized/Thaified culturally, linguistically and all aspects of Chinese culture including the holidays will be gone as well. It's possible that Chinese Indonesians and maybe Chinese Pinoys/Tsinoys might still be Chinese than us even if most of them don't speak Chinese and are pretty assimilated. Interesting. How status obsessed/hypergamy are Thai people? Do they perceive Japan Korean stuff as higher status, so they chase it more? I'm not sure why Thai Chinese are more assimilated than Chinese Malaysians and Chinese Indonesians. I suspect it might be due to Thai people being partially culturally Tibetoburman, so they naturally might be culturally closer to Sinitics than say Malay Muslims, so Chinese people might find themselves assimilating easier. Chinese Malaysians/Indonesians are oftentimes these 6th generational highly enclave no Malay ancestor types which seem less common on Chinese Thais, probably due to Malays and Chinese being culturally too different. Chinese Americans, Canadians and Australians and Chinese New Zealanders are vast majority 1st or 2nd generation. It would make sense for them to be more Chinese due to bulk being recent arrivals and the fact that they probably don't mesh well with Anglo-White culture.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jan 15, 2023 13:58:13 GMT
Some Chinese study on leg length ratio. It seems that in China based on studies, Northwest China and minorities (Tibetans and Kazakhs) have the longest legs to torso height ratios. Hubei on the other hand has the shortest limbs to torso ratio. Interestingly enough, Shandong is also rather long torso. The rest of the provinces just seem the same range.
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jan 15, 2023 14:09:15 GMT
Same thing with Chinese Thais. A lot love Japanese anime and Korean stuff. Many especially the upper and higher middle class Sino-Thais are also proficient in English, even Japanese and to lesser extent, Korean as their families often encourage them to go study for their undergraduate or masters in the West or Japan. Very little especially those who are 40s and younger onwards. Most younger generations can't speak/understand or their ancestral languages (Hainanese, Teochew, Hokkien, etc) at all. It's mainly the older generations can speak their mother tongue and Mandarin, most of who are now in their late 70s to 80 upwards, which is before the closing of Chinese schools by the Siamese government at the time. But there are also exceptions such as those of my grandma, who despite being in her 80s can only speak Thai as her family is very assimilated and comes from an earlier wave of Chinese migrants. And then there are many elderly who understand and speak only their ancestral languages/dialects but don't know any Mandarin. Chinese-Thais only speak Thai among themselves especially the my dad generation onwards. Most have Thai names, are Theravada Buddhists, eat mostly Thai food, use fork and spoon. Many also identify only as Thai especially the younger generations. There are still some who still perform ancestor worship and celebrate holidays such as Chinese New Year and giving red envelope even if they can't speak Chinese and only practiced Thai culture/customs. I have a feeling that in the next generation, ethnic Chinese will disappear as a distinct ethnicity in Thailand as all have become totally Siamized/Thaified culturally, linguistically and all aspects of Chinese culture including the holidays will be gone as well. It's possible that Chinese Indonesians and maybe Chinese Pinoys/Tsinoys might still be Chinese than us even if most of them don't speak Chinese and are pretty assimilated. Interesting. How status obsessed/hypergamy are Thai people? Do they perceive Japan Korean stuff as higher status, so they chase it more? I'm not sure why Thai Chinese are more assimilated than Chinese Malaysians and Chinese Indonesians. I suspect it might be due to Thai people being partially culturally Tibetoburman, so they naturally might be culturally closer to Sinitics than say Malay Muslims, so Chinese people might find themselves assimilating easier. Chinese Malaysians/Indonesians are oftentimes these 6th generational highly enclave no Malay ancestor types which seem less common on Chinese Thais, probably due to Malays and Chinese being culturally too different. Chinese Americans, Canadians and Australians and Chinese New Zealanders are vast majority 1st or 2nd generation. It would make sense for them to be more Chinese due to bulk being recent arrivals and the fact that they probably don't mesh well with Anglo-White culture. Very status obsessed. They worship wealth and light skinned. I believe that's the reason they chase after Japan and Korea. A lot also love Westerners and see them as superior. I also want to add that Hakka and Cantonese are also spoken mostly by the older generation of Chinese-Thais as well although the latter (Cantonese) aren't as numerous as the Hakka, Teochew, Hainanese and Hokkien. Thai people are partially culturally Tibeto-Burman in your opinion? Can you elaborate more on this? Also there are a lot of Chinese descendants in Thailand who look completely SE Asian as their Sinitic ancestry is very diluted now. I read somewhere that up to 40% of Thailand's population have partial Chinese ancestry somewhere in their bloodline. On the other hand, many Sino-Thais are not pure Chinese but have local blood as well. If I am gonna guess, its mainly due to the shared Buddhist religion, culture such as believe in spirits/animism (can be a bit similar to ancestor worship I guess) and foods such as pork and alcohol which makes the Chinese assimilate easier along with the soft power of Thai culture. Not only that, a lot of the assimilation comes during the regime Plaek Phibunsongkhram, who was the prime minister during 1930-1950s, where he closed many Chinese language schools in order to "Thaify" Chinese and any other minorities in Siam during that time as he was pro-West and pro-Japan while being anti-communism which includes being anti-China at that time. Yes, I think in the case of Chinese Malaysians/Indonesians, it is due to the Islamic religion and culture which makes it hard for them to integrate and assimilate. I heard Chinese Pinoys and Chinese Cambodians are also similar to Chinese Thais in terms of assimilation. I don't know if they still cling to Chinese-ness more than the Thai Chinese/Sino-Thais. That's what I thought as well since they are recent migrants. A lot of Chinese Americans/Canadians/Australians/NZ/British also can't speak Chinese right? Another example of an older generation assimilated Chinese descendant is the current first deputy minister and former minister of defence, Prawit Wongsuwan. He is 77 but very likely cannot speak Chinese at all despite being from the older generation. He is definitely very assimilated as he is part of the current military junta while most Chinese descendants in Thailand don't join the army (they tend to dominate business instead). This is what he looks like btw (I will just post the google image search link so you can get to see many pictures instead of one): www.google.com/search?q=prawit+wongsuwan&sxsrf=AJOqlzXnPaQTTSIgcvwMLKwg9SNLHOEUTQ:1673791370978&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3l-Hg3sn8AhVyTmwGHcefC9cQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1536&bih=714&dpr=1.25
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jan 15, 2023 21:19:32 GMT
Interesting. How status obsessed/hypergamy are Thai people? Do they perceive Japan Korean stuff as higher status, so they chase it more? I'm not sure why Thai Chinese are more assimilated than Chinese Malaysians and Chinese Indonesians. I suspect it might be due to Thai people being partially culturally Tibetoburman, so they naturally might be culturally closer to Sinitics than say Malay Muslims, so Chinese people might find themselves assimilating easier. Chinese Malaysians/Indonesians are oftentimes these 6th generational highly enclave no Malay ancestor types which seem less common on Chinese Thais, probably due to Malays and Chinese being culturally too different. Chinese Americans, Canadians and Australians and Chinese New Zealanders are vast majority 1st or 2nd generation. It would make sense for them to be more Chinese due to bulk being recent arrivals and the fact that they probably don't mesh well with Anglo-White culture. Very status obsessed. They worship wealth and light skinned. I believe that's the reason they chase after Japan and Korea. A lot also love Westerners and see them as superior. I also want to add that Hakka and Cantonese are also spoken mostly by the older generation of Chinese-Thais as well although the latter (Cantonese) aren't as numerous as the Hakka, Teochew, Hainanese and Hokkien. Thai people are partially culturally Tibeto-Burman in your opinion? Can you elaborate more on this? Also there are a lot of Chinese descendants in Thailand who look completely SE Asian as their Sinitic ancestry is very diluted now. I read somewhere that up to 40% of Thailand's population have partial Chinese ancestry somewhere in their bloodline. On the other hand, many Sino-Thais are not pure Chinese but have local blood as well. If I am gonna guess, its mainly due to the shared Buddhist religion, culture such as believe in spirits/animism (can be a bit similar to ancestor worship I guess) and foods such as pork and alcohol which makes the Chinese assimilate easier along with the soft power of Thai culture. Not only that, a lot of the assimilation comes during the regime Plaek Phibunsongkhram, who was the prime minister during 1930-1950s, where he closed many Chinese language schools in order to "Thaify" Chinese and any other minorities in Siam during that time as he was pro-West and pro-Japan while being anti-communism which includes being anti-China at that time. Yes, I think in the case of Chinese Malaysians/Indonesians, it is due to the Islamic religion and culture which makes it hard for them to integrate and assimilate. I heard Chinese Pinoys and Chinese Cambodians are also similar to Chinese Thais in terms of assimilation. I don't know if they still cling to Chinese-ness more than the Thai Chinese/Sino-Thais. That's what I thought as well since they are recent migrants. A lot of Chinese Americans/Canadians/Australians/NZ/British also can't speak Chinese right? Another example of an older generation assimilated Chinese descendant is the current first deputy minister and former minister of defence, Prawit Wongsuwan. He is 77 but very likely cannot speak Chinese at all despite being from the older generation. He is definitely very assimilated as he is part of the current military junta while most Chinese descendants in Thailand don't join the army (they tend to dominate business instead). This is what he looks like btw (I will just post the google image search link so you can get to see many pictures instead of one): www.google.com/search?q=prawit+wongsuwan&sxsrf=AJOqlzXnPaQTTSIgcvwMLKwg9SNLHOEUTQ:1673791370978&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3l-Hg3sn8AhVyTmwGHcefC9cQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1536&bih=714&dpr=1.25I've met a decent amount of Chinese Filipinos and I think genetically, they are bulk fully Chinese thought might behave less Chinese than Chinese Malaysians, who strike me as super Chinese? Yeah that would explain why Chinese Thais are the most assimilated. Estimates show that 9 million Chinese people are in Thailand but I'm gonna assume many of these are not fully Chinese Anglosphere raised Chinese are mostly able to speak and have some Chinese skills, although they might be weaker in writing.
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jan 15, 2023 21:32:52 GMT
I'm not sure why Thai Chinese are more assimilated than Chinese Malaysians and Chinese Indonesians. I suspect it might be due to Thai people being partially culturally Tibetoburman, so they naturally might be culturally closer to Sinitics than say Malay Muslims, so Chinese people might find themselves assimilating easier. Let's not mix GEDmatch calculator ancestry components with cultural regions. Thailand is a Theravada Buddhist society which is a bit different from the Mahayana Buddhist Confucianist sphere, but still a non-Hindu Dharmic religion, unlike Abrahamic Maritime Southeast Asia. There's also an argument to be made that Christianity is more accomodating to Chinese culture due to not having the original dietary restrictions of Middle Eastern religions (tbh I have no idea how observant Asian Catholics in Asia are with fasting), and possibly some other things about Islam too I'm not knowledgeable enough here. At any rate there seems to be more anti-Islam and anti-Muslim sentiment in the Chinese-language online sphere than there is with Christianity/Christians or Judaism/Jews. uisashi's online perspective is definitely different from mine (the people I know in the US are less enclave-y and probably a bit less proficient in Chinese on average), but I can confirm the huge amount of soft power Japan and South Korea have among both ethnic Chinese and non-ethnic Chinese East/Southeast Asians in the US. I'm probably the least weeby member of my small high school circle of ethnic Chinese guys of different regional ancestries. Re: heritage language proficiency- there are essentially no situations in daily life where we actually need to be able to speak Mandarin/Cantonese/Fuzhounese/etc unless our parents or grandparents aren't proficient in English. People like me who are self-conscious about not being that fluent and wanting to watch Chinese movies and listen to Chinese songs online are not the norm. Fairly certain most of us (non-hapa) 2nd gens can passively understand whatever language was spoken at home, would be very surprised if it's less than 75-80% for people under 50.
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jan 15, 2023 21:33:49 GMT
Genotype =/= phenotype. SEA Chinese don’t need that much non-Chinese ancestry to look different from South China Han. Chinese Malaysians/Singaporeans and Taiwanese are good examples of this- genetically they’re basically indistinguishable but they collectively have enough non-Chinese ancestors (whether Malay/ISEA + South Asian or yuanzhumin + Euro) for different phenotypal traits to be introduced into the population. For your “Japanese” looking relative’s group photo, the black top and red top women have a distinctly Siamese/Indianized MSEA nose shape that doesn’t exist among China Chinese. I do noticed though that many mainland Chinese tourists in Thailand do look different phenotypically from Chinese Thais though even many of the Southern Chinese ones. Most Chinese Thais are infatuated and interested about Japan and Korea, but very rarely feeling any bond or interest towards China, their ancestral homeland, sadly. I don't know why, but its probably due to Siamese/Thai government being pro-Japan and pro-West while being anti-communism for most of the 20th and 21st century and thus influencing the populace to think in that way. And the fact that Japanese and Korean culture and soft power is very influential in Thailand and many other SE Asian countries. To me, its sad how most Chinese Thais have little interest and connection towards mainland China. For example, quite a long time ago, one of my cousins was talking about how he wants to learn Japanese because he thinks its cool and useful. I asked him if he is also wants to learn Mandarin, and he makes a rather bored unimpressed face and says he is not interested in it and don't see the point. I noticed this same apathetic and rather self hating attitude in many other younger Chinese Thais as well towards anything Chinese related which is unfortunate. I feel many are not even interested in Taiwan, HK, Singapore or any Chinese majority places unlike Japan, Korea and the West which they loved and admired. I think out of all the oversea Chinese descendants, Sino-Thais are the least Chinese culturally and linguistically and are probably regarded as foreigners by Chinese people. I feel even Chinese Americans or other Western Chinese diaspora are more "Chinese" than Sino-Thais. Apologies for the off topic, but I feel its very unfortunate. I think I'm one of the very few younger Chinese Thais who is interested in becoming fluent/proficient in Mandarin as my third language (would be nice if I can also learn Hainanese and Teochew) and learning more about my roots. That's because the Southern Chinese tourists in Thailand come from all over Southern China, whereas Chinese Thais are mostly of Teochew or Hokkien origin. Like I mentioned earlier, people who aren't familiar with Southern China would often consider the region to be a unified whole, but that's definitely quite far from the truth, since there're quite a lot of diversity in the region both within and among different Southern Chinese provinces. And regarding Thailand-PRC relations, although the Thai government might not be overtly pro-China, it's a far cry to call it anti-China. In fact I would consider Thailand to be one of the most friendly countries to China in SE Asia and perhaps in the entire world. For instance, Thailand is one of the most loyal customers of Chinese arms export, they've bought many equipment from China including frigate, armored personnel carriers, amphibious tanks, main battle tanks, etc. Thai military started to buy Chinese equipment 3 to 4 decades ago back when the Chinese arms industry itself was just beginning and the quality of the equipment they could produce at that time was far worse than today. And with arms sale most of the times you're not just buying the weapon itself, there's an underlying political connotation as well. And just recently Thailand has become one of the first countries in SE Asia and perhaps in the world to openly welcome the first major wave of Chinese tourists since the outbreak of the pandemic, even the vice president of Thailand was there at the airport and he gave out wreathes to every Chinese tourist descending from the plane, and the Thai crew at the airport held banners written in Chinese characters "中泰一家亲" (China and Thailand are one family). Such a gesture caused a sensation on Chinese Internet and warmed the hearts of many Chinese people. Not to mention that the current Thai princess (forgot her name maybe you could enlighten me on this) often went to China to participate in major events, I remember the last time she was in China was back in 2019 for the 70th anniversary of the founding of PRC, and she even went to the Zhuang autonomous region and danced with the Zhuang children. It's great that you want to get in touch with your roots, but I don't want to blame those Sino-Thais who had forgotten their roots and fell for the soft power of Korea and Japan cause that's just the way it is China has nearly no share whatsoever in the global entertainment industry. Thailand is a country that I'd like to visit in the future, and I'm very grateful to the kind gestures of the Thai people.
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jan 15, 2023 21:41:59 GMT
Genotype =/= phenotype. SEA Chinese don’t need that much non-Chinese ancestry to look different from South China Han. Chinese Malaysians/Singaporeans and Taiwanese are good examples of this- genetically they’re basically indistinguishable but they collectively have enough non-Chinese ancestors (whether Malay/ISEA + South Asian or yuanzhumin + Euro) for different phenotypal traits to be introduced into the population. For your “Japanese” looking relative’s group photo, the black top and red top women have a distinctly Siamese/Indianized MSEA nose shape that doesn’t exist among China Chinese. Agreed with you. Btw I should have use the word "possible" instead of "probable" for any potential Siamese admixture. But I wonder if the some of the SEA vibes you detected in some SEA Chinese diaspora including me came from the Baiyue ancestry in Southern Chinese rather than recent SE Asian admixture? Considering how most Southern Chinese are a mix of Northern Han settlers and the indigenous tribes of that area. Btw does my younger brother look more northern-shifted than me and my sister? I see. Can you elaborate on how the nose shape looks different from Chinese in China? Do you see any other southern traits in the group photo? Hard to say about you and your siblings. You all look physically SEA-influenced in ways that Lingnan Chinese, Fujianese, and Taiwanese generally do not. I don't think your brother is more northern-looking than you two, if that makes any sense. The SEA vibes I'm referring to are traits or placements of features that I haven't seen among China Chinese from the South China Sea area. When I say things like Chinese Indonesians look native Indonesian-mixed I mean that they have certain "southern East Asian" traits that aren't found in South China proper, but could be explained by having some native Indonesian ancestry (e.g. Alexey12 from Anthroscape once admitted to having a Sundanese(?) great-great grandmother) Re: Siamese-looking nose shape- the wings of the nose are too distinctly ASEAN looking. That's all I'll say without cropping faces from the photo.
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jan 15, 2023 22:01:21 GMT
Agreed with you. Btw I should have use the word "possible" instead of "probable" for any potential Siamese admixture. But I wonder if the some of the SEA vibes you detected in some SEA Chinese diaspora including me came from the Baiyue ancestry in Southern Chinese rather than recent SE Asian admixture? Considering how most Southern Chinese are a mix of Northern Han settlers and the indigenous tribes of that area. Btw does my younger brother look more northern-shifted than me and my sister? I see. Can you elaborate on how the nose shape looks different from Chinese in China? Do you see any other southern traits in the group photo? Hard to say about you and your siblings. You all look physically SEA-influenced in ways that Lingnan Chinese, Fujianese, and Taiwanese generally do not. I don't think your brother is more northern-looking than you two, if that makes any sense. The SEA vibes I'm referring to are traits or placements of features that I haven't seen among China Chinese from the South China Sea area. When I say things like Chinese Indonesians look native Indonesian-mixed I mean that they have certain "southern East Asian" traits that aren't found in South China proper, but could be explained by having some native Indonesian ancestry (e.g. Alexey12 from Anthroscape once admitted to having a Sundanese(?) great-great grandmother) Re: Siamese-looking nose shape- the wings of the nose are too distinctly ASEAN looking. That's all I'll say without cropping faces from the photo. I disagree with the Lingnan Chinese part, I think a lot of Lingnan Chinese I've seen (particularly those from Western GD and GX) are more SEA-influenced than shirvanshah and his siblings. It's true that his siblings have a slight Siamese vibe in the lower face, but overall they still give me a Chinese or East Asian feel, especially their eye region looks very northern-influenced, similar to Mandarin Corner's type.
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jan 15, 2023 22:09:23 GMT
View AttachmentSome Chinese study on leg length ratio. It seems that in China based on studies, Northwest China and minorities (Tibetans and Kazakhs) have the longest legs to torso height ratios. Hubei on the other hand has the shortest limbs to torso ratio. Interestingly enough, Shandong is also rather long torso. The rest of the provinces just seem the same range. Thanks for providing the graph. The data from anthropological studies have broken a lot of stereotypes. If you ask a random Chinese person about leg length ratio then they would probably say that Guangdong, Guangxi, and Hainan have the shortest legs and Shandong has the longest legs, but actual measurements don't support their views. Although the data for Guangdong and Guangxi on this graph aren't that amazing, they still have a longer leg to torso height ratio than Shandong and this is for both men and women. And Hainan even ranks near the top on the graph. I've recently come across a study about nasal index on Zhihu from a Chinese survey in 2017, and it shows that the Yue or Cantonese group has the highest percentage of people with high nasal root height at 0.232, again contradicting with the common stereotype. This is why I think a lot of the flaks received by Cantonese people regarding their appearance on Chinese forums are unjustified and unfair.
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jan 16, 2023 0:18:36 GMT
Same thing with Chinese Thais. A lot love Japanese anime and Korean stuff. Many especially the upper and higher middle class Sino-Thais are also proficient in English, even Japanese and to lesser extent, Korean as their families often encourage them to go study for their undergraduate or masters in the West or Japan. Very little especially those who are 40s and younger onwards. Most younger generations can't speak/understand or their ancestral languages (Hainanese, Teochew, Hokkien, etc) at all. It's mainly the older generations can speak their mother tongue or Mandarin, most of who are now in their late 70s to 80 upwards, which is before the closing of Chinese schools by the Siamese government at the time. But there are also exceptions such as those of my grandma, who despite being in her 80s can only speak Thai as her family is very assimilated and comes from a much earlier wave of Chinese migrants. And then there are many elderly who understand and speak only their ancestral languages/dialects but don't know any Mandarin. Chinese-Thais only speak Thai among themselves especially the my dad generation onwards. Most have Thai names, are Theravada Buddhists, eat mostly Thai food, use fork and spoon. Many also identify only as Thai especially the younger generations. There are still some who still perform ancestor worship and celebrate holidays such as Chinese New Year and giving red envelope even if they can't speak Chinese and only practiced Thai culture/customs. I have a feeling that in the next generation, ethnic Chinese will disappear as a distinct ethnicity in Thailand as all have become totally Siamized/Thaified culturally, linguistically and all aspects of Chinese culture including the holidays will be gone as well. It's possible that Chinese Indonesians and maybe Chinese Pinoys/Tsinoys might still be Chinese than us even if most of them don't speak Chinese and are pretty assimilated. I'm not sure why Thai Chinese are more assimilated than Chinese Malaysians and Chinese Indonesians. I suspect it might be due to Thai people being partially culturally Tibetoburman, so they naturally might be culturally closer to Sinitics than say Malay Muslims, so Chinese people might find themselves assimilating easier. Chinese Malaysians/Indonesians are oftentimes these 6th generational highly enclave no Malay ancestor types which seem less common on Chinese Thais, probably due to Malays and Chinese being culturally too different. The Tibeto-Burman influence in MSEA has been grossly exaggerated, both in terms of genetic contributions and cultural contributions. In terms of genetics, I think the three main contributors of modern Thai peoples are Mon Austroasiatic-speaking natives, Tai-speakers from Guangxi and Yunnan, and some Teochew and Hakka influences, whereas the Tibeto-Burman influence is minimal and is mostly limited to the underdeveloped hilly regions of northwestern Thailand. Even the Burmese probably have higher Austroasiatic-related ancestries than Tibeto-Burman related ancestries. And in terms of culture, much of MSEA belongs to the Indosphere and derived much of their culture and religion from the ancient kingdoms of India. The more likely reason for Thai Chinese being better assimilated than Malaysian or Indonesian Chinese is that Thai people follow Theravada Buddhism, which is much less exclusive than Abrahamic religions.
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jan 16, 2023 2:46:59 GMT
Hard to say about you and your siblings. You all look physically SEA-influenced in ways that Lingnan Chinese, Fujianese, and Taiwanese generally do not. I don't think your brother is more northern-looking than you two, if that makes any sense. The SEA vibes I'm referring to are traits or placements of features that I haven't seen among China Chinese from the South China Sea area. When I say things like Chinese Indonesians look native Indonesian-mixed I mean that they have certain "southern East Asian" traits that aren't found in South China proper, but could be explained by having some native Indonesian ancestry (e.g. Alexey12 from Anthroscape once admitted to having a Sundanese(?) great-great grandmother) Re: Siamese-looking nose shape- the wings of the nose are too distinctly ASEAN looking. That's all I'll say without cropping faces from the photo. I disagree with the Lingnan Chinese part, I think a lot of Lingnan Chinese I've seen (particularly those from Western GD and GX) are more SEA-influenced than shirvanshah and his siblings. It's true that his siblings have a slight Siamese vibe in the lower face, but overall they still give me a Chinese or East Asian feel, especially their eye region looks very northern-influenced, similar to Mandarin Corner's type. This isn't a question of "who looks the most SEA" (what if we were comparing Khmers with Filipinos? which group would be more "SEA" in that case?), it's a question of whether they can pass as China Chinese.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jan 16, 2023 2:54:22 GMT
I'm not sure why Thai Chinese are more assimilated than Chinese Malaysians and Chinese Indonesians. I suspect it might be due to Thai people being partially culturally Tibetoburman, so they naturally might be culturally closer to Sinitics than say Malay Muslims, so Chinese people might find themselves assimilating easier. Let's not mix GEDmatch calculator ancestry components with cultural regions. Thailand is a Theravada Buddhist society which is a bit different from the Mahayana Buddhist Confucianist sphere, but still a non-Hindu Dharmic religion, unlike Abrahamic Maritime Southeast Asia. There's also an argument to be made that Christianity is more accomodating to Chinese culture due to not having the original dietary restrictions of Middle Eastern religions (tbh I have no idea how observant Asian Catholics in Asia are with fasting), and possibly some other things about Islam too I'm not knowledgeable enough here. At any rate there seems to be more anti-Islam and anti-Muslim sentiment in the Chinese-language online sphere than there is with Christianity/Christians or Judaism/Jews. uisashi's online perspective is definitely different from mine (the people I know in the US are less enclave-y and probably a bit less proficient in Chinese on average), but I can confirm the huge amount of soft power Japan and South Korea have among both ethnic Chinese and non-ethnic Chinese East/Southeast Asians in the US. I'm probably the least weeby member of my small high school circle of ethnic Chinese guys of different regional ancestries. Re: heritage language proficiency- there are essentially no situations in daily life where we actually need to be able to speak Mandarin/Cantonese/Fuzhounese/etc unless our parents or grandparents aren't proficient in English. People like me who are self-conscious about not being that fluent and wanting to watch Chinese movies and listen to Chinese songs online are not the norm. Fairly certain most of us (non-hapa) 2nd gens can passively understand whatever language was spoken at home, would be very surprised if it's less than 75-80% for people under 50. Yeah I think most ABCs here go to Chinese school when they are younger and speak Chinese at home with their parents. I have not met any who cannot speak Mandarin. Also they have high rates of Weebism and animewatcher. Why do Asians like anime so much? @mnops I think comparing whose nose is pointier in East Asia is pretty pointless, as there are flat and sharp ones on both sides
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jan 16, 2023 3:16:25 GMT
I disagree with the Lingnan Chinese part, I think a lot of Lingnan Chinese I've seen (particularly those from Western GD and GX) are more SEA-influenced than shirvanshah and his siblings. It's true that his siblings have a slight Siamese vibe in the lower face, but overall they still give me a Chinese or East Asian feel, especially their eye region looks very northern-influenced, similar to Mandarin Corner's type. This isn't a question of "who looks the most SEA" (what if we were comparing Khmers with Filipinos? which group would be more "SEA" in that case?), it's a question of whether they can pass as China Chinese. Despite the slight Siamese vibe on their lower face, I still think he and his siblings can pass in China. Like I mentioned earlier they would pass best in Fujian, Taiwan, Jiangxi, and perhaps the Teochew region in Eastern Guangdong. I don't think they can pass as Cantonese though as their looks aren't typical for the Cantonese regions in Western GD and GX, which tend to have a more overtly SE Asian influenced look closer to Annamid types.
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jan 16, 2023 6:38:09 GMT
This isn't a question of "who looks the most SEA" (what if we were comparing Khmers with Filipinos? which group would be more "SEA" in that case?), it's a question of whether they can pass as China Chinese. Despite the slight Siamese vibe on their lower face, I still think he and his siblings can pass in China. Like I mentioned earlier they would pass best in Fujian, Taiwan, Jiangxi, and perhaps the Teochew region in Eastern Guangdong. I don't think they can pass as Cantonese though as their looks aren't typical for the Cantonese regions in Western GD and GX, which tend to have a more overtly SE Asian influenced look closer to Annamid types. How about my paternal cousins (kids of my uncles and aunts) that I posted earlier: do they also pass in those regions you mentioned or are they a bit more "northern" than me? Don't have pics of my maternal relatives as they tend to be all old age now and they don't use social media. I think you are right. When I was traveling in Hanoi with my two American friends (one who is half Jewish half Pino, another who is half generic White American half Jewish), the Vietnamese were able to tell that I'm not one of them, except only one time where a staff at a restaurant speak to me in Vietnamese first, but later change to English when she noticed I don't understand the language. But I don't know is it because I was traveling with my friends which makes it easier to be recognized as foreigners, or was it because of my fashion sense and height that is different from the Viets as I was taller that literally everyone there lol.
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jan 16, 2023 7:05:59 GMT
Let's not mix GEDmatch calculator ancestry components with cultural regions. Thailand is a Theravada Buddhist society which is a bit different from the Mahayana Buddhist Confucianist sphere, but still a non-Hindu Dharmic religion, unlike Abrahamic Maritime Southeast Asia. There's also an argument to be made that Christianity is more accomodating to Chinese culture due to not having the original dietary restrictions of Middle Eastern religions (tbh I have no idea how observant Asian Catholics in Asia are with fasting), and possibly some other things about Islam too I'm not knowledgeable enough here. At any rate there seems to be more anti-Islam and anti-Muslim sentiment in the Chinese-language online sphere than there is with Christianity/Christians or Judaism/Jews. uisashi's online perspective is definitely different from mine (the people I know in the US are less enclave-y and probably a bit less proficient in Chinese on average), but I can confirm the huge amount of soft power Japan and South Korea have among both ethnic Chinese and non-ethnic Chinese East/Southeast Asians in the US. I'm probably the least weeby member of my small high school circle of ethnic Chinese guys of different regional ancestries. Re: heritage language proficiency- there are essentially no situations in daily life where we actually need to be able to speak Mandarin/Cantonese/Fuzhounese/etc unless our parents or grandparents aren't proficient in English. People like me who are self-conscious about not being that fluent and wanting to watch Chinese movies and listen to Chinese songs online are not the norm. Fairly certain most of us (non-hapa) 2nd gens can passively understand whatever language was spoken at home, would be very surprised if it's less than 75-80% for people under 50. Yeah I think most ABCs here go to Chinese school when they are younger and speak Chinese at home with their parents. I have not met any who cannot speak Mandarin. Also they have high rates of Weebism and animewatcher. Why do Asians like anime so much? Have probably mentioned this before but I've met quite a few heritage Cantonese speakers with pinyin names. I don't actually think most of us (Chinese Americans at least) went to Chinese language school on the weekends, it's definitely less common among Cantonese speakers at least (although I remember being in more advanced Mandarin classes with people who spoke Cantonese at home). Obviously adoptees aren't going to be able to speak any Chinese if they were raised by white people. I wouldn't say most of the people I know IRL are weebs but having seen some anime is definitely more mainstream among East/Southeast Asian Americans than other races. Pokemon, Naruto, Yu-Gi-Oh and Dragonball Z are a thing on subtle asian traits because they were part of the cartoons we all watched on TV during weekends. K-dramas are also more fairly popular but unlike with k-pop I have no idea who actually watches them.
I still disagree with MNOPS, I think all three of you can pass in Cantonese speaking areas although not as typical for the same reasons you look atypical for non-Yue speaking parts of South China. Despite the slight Siamese vibe on their lower face, I still think he and his siblings can pass in China. Like I mentioned earlier they would pass best in Fujian, Taiwan, Jiangxi, and perhaps the Teochew region in Eastern Guangdong. I don't think they can pass as Cantonese though as their looks aren't typical for the Cantonese regions in Western GD and GX, which tend to have a more overtly SE Asian influenced look closer to Annamid types. How about my paternal cousins (kids of my uncles and aunts) that I posted earlier: do they also pass in those regions you mentioned or are they a bit more "northern" than me? Don't have pics of my maternal relatives as they tend to be all old age now and they don't use social media. I think you are right. When I was traveling in Hanoi with my two American friends (one who is half Jewish half Pino, another who is half generic White American half Jewish), the Vietnamese were able to tell that I'm not one of them, except only one time where a staff at a restaurant speak to me in Vietnamese first, but later change to English when she noticed I don't understand the language. But I don't know is it because I was traveling with my friends which makes it easier to be recognized as foreigners, or was it because of my fashion sense and height that is different from the Viets as I was taller that literally everyone there lol. I think it's because you were traveling with obviously foreign friends, and because you're so tall lol. It isn't that common for East/Southeast Asian men to be over 180 cm among my RL circles. The only East/Southeast Asian men I regularly see who are that tall are all ethnic Chinese- regardless of where their families immigrated from.
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