shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 9, 2017 12:59:44 GMT
After finishing from university.
Where should I go for better accent? Also how many years should I stay there?
P.S- Im mostly oversea Chinese of Teochew, Hainanese descent on my father side with some Thai admix from my mother side. Don't know how much Chinese my maternal side have.
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eldertree
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Post by eldertree on Apr 9, 2017 15:08:24 GMT
After finishing from university. Where should I go for better accent? Also how many years should I stay there? P.S- Im mostly oversea Chinese of Teochew, Hainanese descent on my father side with some Thai admix from my mother side. Don't know how much Chinese my maternal side have. It's a tricky one. Taiwan may be better for Westerners or people who are accommodated to ~Western~ societies, such that there is less "culture shock" at least initially. They use Traditional Chinese (can be a pro or con depending on how you look at it), and their accent is non-Standard. Taiwan people are greatly influenced by the Hokkien (闽南话; Minnan) language, which is different from Mandarin or Standard Chinese (普通话 ). Chinese teachers in Taiwan who have received professional training can probably speak Standard Chinese, but most locals speak in a non Standard way. Taiwanese also use a variety of romanisation systems plus Zhuyin / Mandarin phonetic symbols (注音符号), whereas China just uses Hanyu pinyin. For China it really depends where. First Tier cities are very modern and tidy. Actually, many Chinese who visit Taiwan are surprised how "backward" and "shabby" Taiwan is (buildings, roads, infrastructure, etc). The air in Taiwan is generally better than those in China though, so that might be something to consider. Inland China is generally less developed. But it really depends on what you are looking for, some people want to experience less developed societies. Places in Southern China don't use Standard accents. It's supposed to be areas in NE China (not Beijing or Tianjin) where the dialects are closest to Standard Chinese, but you may not be able to handle the Winter months, where it can get as cold as -20C. Learning Mandarin in China is more valuable to employers than learning Mandarin in Taiwan. So in terms of job prospects China is the better choice. You might also consider cities in East coast China like Qingdao (Shandong) and Shanghai but you have to be aware that the locals have their own dialects and accents there too (especially Shanghai where Wu (吴语) is the local language). That said, Shenzhen and Guangzhou are considered good cities to live in, so if speaking in a Standard way is not your priority then those cities are also places to consider. I read that there is also a recent surge in ~Hokkien~ and ~Native~ pride in Taiwan, so many people are using Hokkien rather than Mandarin to distance themselves from China.
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 9, 2017 16:32:56 GMT
After finishing from university. Where should I go for better accent? Also how many years should I stay there? P.S- Im mostly oversea Chinese of Teochew, Hainanese descent on my father side with some Thai admix from my mother side. Don't know how much Chinese my maternal side have. It's a tricky one. Taiwan may be better for Westerners or people who are accommodated to ~Western~ societies, such that there is less "culture shock" at least initially. They use Traditional Chinese (can be a pro or con depending on how you look at it), and their accent is non-Standard. Taiwan people are greatly influenced by the Hokkien (闽南话; Minnan) language, which is different from Mandarin or Standard Chinese (普通话 ). Chinese teachers in Taiwan who have received professional training can probably speak Standard Chinese, but most locals speak in a non Standard way. Taiwanese also use a variety of romanisation systems plus Zhuyin / Mandarin phonetic symbols (注音符号), whereas China just uses Hanyu pinyin. For China it really depends where. First Tier cities are very modern and tidy. Actually, many Chinese who visit Taiwan are surprised how "backward" and "shabby" Taiwan is (buildings, roads, infrastructure, etc). The air in Taiwan is generally better than those in China though, so that might be something to consider. Inland China is generally less developed. But it really depends on what you are looking for, some people want to experience less developed societies. Places in Southern China don't use Standard accents. It's supposed to be areas in NE China (not Beijing or Tianjin) where the dialects are closest to Standard Chinese, but you may not be able to handle the Winter months, where it can get as cold as -20C. Learning Mandarin in China is more valuable to employers than learning Mandarin in Taiwan. So in terms of job prospects China is the better choice. You might also consider cities in East coast China like Qingdao (Shandong) and Shanghai but you have to be aware that the locals have their own dialects and accents there too (especially Shanghai where Wu (吴语) is the local language). That said, Shenzhen and Guangzhou are considered good cities to live in, so if speaking in a Standard way is not your priority then those cities are also places to consider. I read that there is also a recent surge in ~Hokkien~ and ~Native~ pride in Taiwan, so many people are using Hokkien rather than Mandarin to distance themselves from China. Wow thank you for the very detailed and long reply!! You know quite a lot!! Hmm Taiwan seem like a good option as I am pretty much globalized in my thinking and opinions (I am third cultured from being raised abroad many years and thus is pretty globalized; don't identify completely with any particular country). Also the fact that they used more traditional is also appealing but it is also harder to learn compared to the simplified one. What are some Hokkien influences in words in Taiwanese Mandarin? Whoa, rather surprised to know that many Chinese found Taiwan to be "backward" and "shabby" in those stuff. I thought Taiwan was more modern. Regarding China, I am thinking of cities like Beijing or Shanghai as I want to live in a big city and have tourist attraction. Holy Crap! Is Beijing or Tianjin usually that cold? I think I can stand -20 Celsius though since right now I am studying in Ohio which can get really cold in winter like -14 or even -20. But -20 celsius in Ohio might be pretty different from the -20 celsius in Beijing or Tianjin tho depending on the climate koppen types each place is in. But now maybe Shenzhen and Guangzhou might also be good options as it seems a lot warmer than Beijing or Tianjin in winter!!Thinking again, speaking in Standard way is not my most priority. I remember when I went to China in my high school travel project many years ago, the guide told me my Mandarin (I know only few words and sentences) pronunciations are not that clear and that I should rather try Cantonese as it is a more suitable language for my pronunciation. In terms of job prospects, I don't think I can compete with mainland Chinese people. Also if it is office or company work, I'm not sure how good I am. My parents told me I'm more of a researcher or specialist type of person. Can you post the article or link that talks about the Hokkien revival in Taiwan?
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eldertree
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Post by eldertree on Apr 9, 2017 17:38:32 GMT
It's a tricky one. Taiwan may be better for Westerners or people who are accommodated to ~Western~ societies, such that there is less "culture shock" at least initially. They use Traditional Chinese (can be a pro or con depending on how you look at it), and their accent is non-Standard. Taiwan people are greatly influenced by the Hokkien (闽南话; Minnan) language, which is different from Mandarin or Standard Chinese (普通话 ). Chinese teachers in Taiwan who have received professional training can probably speak Standard Chinese, but most locals speak in a non Standard way. Taiwanese also use a variety of romanisation systems plus Zhuyin / Mandarin phonetic symbols (注音符号), whereas China just uses Hanyu pinyin. For China it really depends where. First Tier cities are very modern and tidy. Actually, many Chinese who visit Taiwan are surprised how "backward" and "shabby" Taiwan is (buildings, roads, infrastructure, etc). The air in Taiwan is generally better than those in China though, so that might be something to consider. Inland China is generally less developed. But it really depends on what you are looking for, some people want to experience less developed societies. Places in Southern China don't use Standard accents. It's supposed to be areas in NE China (not Beijing or Tianjin) where the dialects are closest to Standard Chinese, but you may not be able to handle the Winter months, where it can get as cold as -20C. Learning Mandarin in China is more valuable to employers than learning Mandarin in Taiwan. So in terms of job prospects China is the better choice. You might also consider cities in East coast China like Qingdao (Shandong) and Shanghai but you have to be aware that the locals have their own dialects and accents there too (especially Shanghai where Wu (吴语) is the local language). That said, Shenzhen and Guangzhou are considered good cities to live in, so if speaking in a Standard way is not your priority then those cities are also places to consider. I read that there is also a recent surge in ~Hokkien~ and ~Native~ pride in Taiwan, so many people are using Hokkien rather than Mandarin to distance themselves from China. Wow thank you for the very detailed and long reply!! You know quite a lot!! Hmm Taiwan seem like a good option as I am pretty much globalized in my thinking and opinions (I am third cultured from being raised abroad many years and thus is pretty globalized; don't identify completely with any particular country). Also the fact that they used more traditional is also appealing but it is also harder to learn compared to the simplified one. What are some Hokkien influences in words in Taiwanese Mandarin? Whoa, rather surprised to know that many Chinese found Taiwan to be "backward" and "shabby" in those stuff. I thought Taiwan was more modern. Regarding China, I am thinking of cities like Beijing or Shanghai as I want to live in a big city and have tourist attraction. Holy Crap! Is Beijing or Tianjin usually that cold? I think I can stand -20 Celsius though since right now I am studying in Ohio which can get really cold in winter like -14 or even -20. But -20 celsius in Ohio might be pretty different from the -20 celsius in Beijing or Tianjin tho depending on the climate koppen types each place is in. But now maybe Shenzhen and Guangzhou might also be good options as it seems a lot warmer than Beijing or Tianjin in winter!!Thinking again, speaking in Standard way is not my most priority. I remember when I went to China in my high school travel project many years ago, the guide told me my Mandarin (I know only few words and sentences) pronunciations are not that clear and that I should rather try Cantonese as it is a more suitable language for my pronunciation. In terms of job prospects, I don't think I can compete with mainland Chinese people. Also if it is office or company work, I'm not sure how good I am. My parents told me I'm more of a researcher or specialist type of person. Can you post the article or link that talks about the Hokkien revival in Taiwan? I was on about Harbin for -20C lol. Beijing and Tianjin don't use Standard Mandarin they have their own dialect (Beijinghua and Tianjinhua) which is not Standard Chinese, it is a heavy rhotic accent lol. I think Beijing can get cold but not as cold as Harbin. The average in winter is like -12C? Where I am now in UK, the average in winter is like 3C in winter, so it is comparably mild. But yeah in that case go for Taiwan. Taiwanese are said to be more friendly and warm to strangers and travellers. China in comparison is generally a bit more aloof and are less enthusiastic with people whom they don't know. And yes the Chinese from China surprised about decaying apartments in Taiwan is true: Taiwanese trying to be more "native": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanization
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 9, 2017 18:00:47 GMT
Wow thank you for the very detailed and long reply!! You know quite a lot!! Hmm Taiwan seem like a good option as I am pretty much globalized in my thinking and opinions (I am third cultured from being raised abroad many years and thus is pretty globalized; don't identify completely with any particular country). Also the fact that they used more traditional is also appealing but it is also harder to learn compared to the simplified one. What are some Hokkien influences in words in Taiwanese Mandarin? Whoa, rather surprised to know that many Chinese found Taiwan to be "backward" and "shabby" in those stuff. I thought Taiwan was more modern. Regarding China, I am thinking of cities like Beijing or Shanghai as I want to live in a big city and have tourist attraction. Holy Crap! Is Beijing or Tianjin usually that cold? I think I can stand -20 Celsius though since right now I am studying in Ohio which can get really cold in winter like -14 or even -20. But -20 celsius in Ohio might be pretty different from the -20 celsius in Beijing or Tianjin tho depending on the climate koppen types each place is in. But now maybe Shenzhen and Guangzhou might also be good options as it seems a lot warmer than Beijing or Tianjin in winter!!Thinking again, speaking in Standard way is not my most priority. I remember when I went to China in my high school travel project many years ago, the guide told me my Mandarin (I know only few words and sentences) pronunciations are not that clear and that I should rather try Cantonese as it is a more suitable language for my pronunciation. In terms of job prospects, I don't think I can compete with mainland Chinese people. Also if it is office or company work, I'm not sure how good I am. My parents told me I'm more of a researcher or specialist type of person. Can you post the article or link that talks about the Hokkien revival in Taiwan? I was on about Harbin for -20C lol. Beijing and Tianjin don't use Standard Mandarin they have their own dialect (Beijinghua and Tianjinhua) which is not Standard Chinese, it is a heavy rhotic accent lol. I think Beijing can get cold but not as cold as Harbin. The average in winter is like -12C? Where I am now in UK, the average in winter is like 3C in winter, so it is comparably mild. But yeah in that case go for Taiwan. Taiwanese are said to be more friendly and warm to strangers and travellers. China in comparison is generally a bit more aloof and are less enthusiastic with people whom they don't know. And yes the Chinese from China surprised about decaying apartments in Taiwan is true: Taiwanese trying to be more "native": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaiwanizationOh I see. So it is Harbin that is -20 celsius wow. -12 Celsius for Beijing? That is more like Ohio. Although I don't know if -12 celsius in Beijing is different form -12 celsius in Ohio if they belong to a different climate type. Rhotic accent- you mean they use a lot of "r" in their sentences and words? Hmm in that case Taiwan might the best place to go. Nice to know that they are friendly and warm to strangers and foreigners. Would you say Taiwanese or Hong Kongers are more friendly and warm? (I know that Hong Kong is not a good destination for Mandarin Cantonese predominates there) Although would still like to try Shanghai or Beijing if I can. Maybe they are more friendly to strangers and travellers as they are more global and modern cities? Or are the rural areas of China more friendlier and warm? Thanks for both links. Will have a look at them. Btw, if I later speak Taiwanese-style Mandarin and visit China, would I get treated less friendly by locals?
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eldertree
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Post by eldertree on Apr 9, 2017 18:37:34 GMT
I was on about Harbin for -20C lol. Beijing and Tianjin don't use Standard Mandarin they have their own dialect (Beijinghua and Tianjinhua) which is not Standard Chinese, it is a heavy rhotic accent lol. I think Beijing can get cold but not as cold as Harbin. The average in winter is like -12C? Where I am now in UK, the average in winter is like 3C in winter, so it is comparably mild. But yeah in that case go for Taiwan. Taiwanese are said to be more friendly and warm to strangers and travellers. China in comparison is generally a bit more aloof and are less enthusiastic with people whom they don't know. And yes the Chinese from China surprised about decaying apartments in Taiwan is true: Taiwanese trying to be more "native": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaiwanizationOh I see. So it is Harbin that is -20 celsius wow. -12 Celsius for Beijing? That is more like Ohio. Although I don't know if -12 celsius in Beijing is different form -12 celsius in Ohio if they belong to a different climate type. Rhotic accent- you mean they use a lot of "r" in their sentences and words? Hmm in that case Taiwan might the best place to go. Nice to know that they are friendly and warm to strangers and foreigners. Would you say Taiwanese or Hong Kongers are more friendly and warm? (I know that Hong Kong is not a good destination for Mandarin Cantonese predominates there) Although would still like to try Shanghai or Beijing if I can. Maybe they are more friendly to strangers and travellers as they are more global and modern cities? Or are the rural areas of China more friendlier and warm? Thanks for both links. Will have a look at them. Btw, if I later speak Taiwanese-style Mandarin and visit China, would I get treated less friendly by locals? Yeah the /r/ sounds characteristic of Beijing and Tianjin area lol And yes you could always study in Taiwan and take trips to Beijing or Shanghai or even remote parts of China for fun! Or even other parts of Asia like Singapore, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malaysia etc. If you speak Taiwan accent as a male, people in China think it's funny because it gives off an effeminate / flamboyant vibe. The analogy is the stereotypical gay accent in English. Taiwanese accent is close to the stereotypical gay accent in Chinese. On girls it's still acceptable but on men it's not desirable and people think it's funny. You'll be fine though because if you learn from an institution even in Taiwan, they should teach you the proper pronunciation, or at least close to it.
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defiancexyzz
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Post by defiancexyzz on Apr 10, 2017 17:32:52 GMT
Oh I see. So it is Harbin that is -20 celsius wow. -12 Celsius for Beijing? That is more like Ohio. Although I don't know if -12 celsius in Beijing is different form -12 celsius in Ohio if they belong to a different climate type. Rhotic accent- you mean they use a lot of "r" in their sentences and words? Hmm in that case Taiwan might the best place to go. Nice to know that they are friendly and warm to strangers and foreigners. Would you say Taiwanese or Hong Kongers are more friendly and warm? (I know that Hong Kong is not a good destination for Mandarin Cantonese predominates there) Although would still like to try Shanghai or Beijing if I can. Maybe they are more friendly to strangers and travellers as they are more global and modern cities? Or are the rural areas of China more friendlier and warm? Thanks for both links. Will have a look at them. Btw, if I later speak Taiwanese-style Mandarin and visit China, would I get treated less friendly by locals? Unless something's changed in the past few months, Hong Kongers aren't that friendly. I find them typically rude, snobbish and materialistic. Not to mention xenophobic as hell, I think you should always be prepared not to run into the wrong crowd there (i.e. HK "nationalists") and be prepared for some bad service. The older stall owners are the ones I'd avoid. The ultimate choice is yours but I tend to recommend China over Taiwan because Taiwan is too comfortable and it's too easy for you to forget your original purpose. I'm also very biased I recommend Beijing if you are serious in learning Mandarin and still enjoy the benefits of a first tier/international city. It's definitely not as vibrant and cosmopolitan as Shanghai, nor as familiar and chill as Guangzhou but people there are quite nice once you get to know them. You'd probably find the average Beijinger rather aloof and indifferent but they're helpful and will open up once they know you. If you want a more friendly environment, I recommend the cities in Jiangsu, people from both Suzhou and Nanjing are very friendly but that's not your purpose, is it now? You want to learn If you're truly, truly committed to learning Mandarin by immersion then I won't recommend a first or even second tier city at all and choose somewhere you're forced to communicate in Mandarin. But you need to get the basics first, we don't want to get you lost because of me P.S. Going by personal experience, both are good but rural areas are particularly warm and friendly
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defiancexyzz
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Post by defiancexyzz on Apr 10, 2017 17:56:31 GMT
Wow thank you for the very detailed and long reply!! You know quite a lot!! Hmm Taiwan seem like a good option as I am pretty much globalized in my thinking and opinions (I am third cultured from being raised abroad many years and thus is pretty globalized; don't identify completely with any particular country). Also the fact that they used more traditional is also appealing but it is also harder to learn compared to the simplified one. What are some Hokkien influences in words in Taiwanese Mandarin? Whoa, rather surprised to know that many Chinese found Taiwan to be "backward" and "shabby" in those stuff. I thought Taiwan was more modern. Regarding China, I am thinking of cities like Beijing or Shanghai as I want to live in a big city and have tourist attraction. Holy Crap! Is Beijing or Tianjin usually that cold? I think I can stand -20 Celsius though since right now I am studying in Ohio which can get really cold in winter like -14 or even -20. But -20 celsius in Ohio might be pretty different from the -20 celsius in Beijing or Tianjin tho depending on the climate koppen types each place is in. But now maybe Shenzhen and Guangzhou might also be good options as it seems a lot warmer than Beijing or Tianjin in winter!!Thinking again, speaking in Standard way is not my most priority. I remember when I went to China in my high school travel project many years ago, the guide told me my Mandarin (I know only few words and sentences) pronunciations are not that clear and that I should rather try Cantonese as it is a more suitable language for my pronunciation. In terms of job prospects, I don't think I can compete with mainland Chinese people. Also if it is office or company work, I'm not sure how good I am. My parents told me I'm more of a researcher or specialist type of person. Can you post the article or link that talks about the Hokkien revival in Taiwan? Chinese find Taiwan "backwards" but it's mostly by those from the bigger and more developed cities. That's because major cities in China have very modern infrastructure and new buildings. It's like comparing the new city of Shenzhen (i.e. China's silicon valley) with Guangzhou (more traditional city). Furthermore, I wouldn't worry about the cold if I were you. If you live in Ohio or Boston then it's not so bad and you can tolerate Beijing. I spent my formative years in Minnesota which definitely has harsher weather than all of Europe and most of China minus Russia/Siberia. If you go outside, away from heating haha Even so, places like Harbin and Inner Mongolia are simply brutally cold when cold no matter what. One funny thing the climate in Northeast China is comparatively drier than Europe/North America hence Northeasterners fear a cold and wet climate, to the point of stereotyping South China as more unbearable than China's cold frontier. I think they're being nice and pulling everyone's leg
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eldertree
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Post by eldertree on Apr 17, 2017 22:12:20 GMT
shirvanshah I recommend watching some vloggers on their experiences. One vlogger I saw said she thought Chinese are "so nice and welcoming", and are more welcoming to foreigners compared to Americans? I have no experience with Americans so I don't really know if this is true. But bare in mind she is a visible minority so her experiences might be different. She seems a bit ignorant and air headed at times though: This person tells the differences between US / Canada and Taiwan. She said there are these festival / temple parades at like 4 or 5AM in certain Taiwanese cities which woke her up: She also seems a bit air headed and ignorant. I am posting them because it's from their American or Western perspective.
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hoyalv
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Post by hoyalv on Apr 18, 2017 12:11:13 GMT
You can also learn this in the West in better universities. The teacher is usually an import from China or Taiwan. This is a cheaper alternative but it works. You can practice what you've studied in the nearby Chinatowns
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redwine
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Post by redwine on Apr 18, 2017 13:00:07 GMT
I signed up for a class with the Confucius Institute at a local university. Had 2 classes so far, super useful. All the teachers are from China.
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