mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 8, 2022 0:58:17 GMT
My observations are different from yours. I think the older generations of Northern Chinese are quite robust, I've seen quite a lot of robust elders in Beijing, and most Beijingers (especially the older generations) can trace their ancestry to nearby Northern Chinese provinces such as Hebei, Shanxi, or Shandong. My maternal grandparents were both from small villages in Hebei, and they both looked quite robust to me. However, the younger generations of urban Northern Chinese are less robust, either because of a change in diet or because of admixtures with Central or Southern Chinese. I'm not that experienced with Eastern Chinese, but from my limited exposure to them I think they also follow the general pattern that I described and aren't that different from Northern Chinese. Hmm I see What % of old Beijingers do you think have long + narrow faces? My impression was that (at least in Shanxi) a very high proportion of elderly had that sort of face type, but it could be different from urban Beijing for a variety of reasons Very few, less than 10% or perhaps even lower I would say. I'm not that experienced with Shanxi people either, but from my few exposures to them, I get the impression that they're rather wide-faced and sort of Mongol-like and aren't narrow faced at all.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 8, 2022 1:39:14 GMT
I'm not that experienced with Shanxi people either, but from my few exposures to them, I get the impression that they're rather wide-faced and sort of Mongol-like and aren't narrow faced at all. Many old Shanxi/Shaanbei people look like this guy (most of the men in here aren't wide faced) Sometimes they can get to gracile-Med levels of narrowness at the extremes which I feel like isn't really found in other Mongoloid groups much (not from Shanxi- rather an ancestrally Gansu Hui guy born in Beijing but his face is possible in Shanxi and to me displays well the extreme of what you could possibly find in terms of narrowness for elderly people there) i.ytimg.com/vi/iq8X5P7Lv-g/sddefault.jpghistory.xikao.com/photos/people/%E9%A9%AC%E4%B8%89%E7%AB%8B.jpg
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 8, 2022 1:46:12 GMT
Based on videos I've seen, old people in Shanxi, especially rural north Shanxi are at least 3/4 this long narrow face phenotype with skinny limbs. Urban Taiyuan gen x and millennials are typically wider faced though.
Long narrow face seems very common in old generation north Chinese in general, but the quantity is reduced now.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 8, 2022 1:59:06 GMT
My experience with Shanxi people mostly came from my aunt's ex-husband, who was from Shanxi. My aunt was born in 1960 and her ex-husband was probably around the same age. The man didn't give me any narrow impressions, he was quite robust and had a wide face.
I'm not denying that there are long-narrow faced individuals among older generations of Northern Chinese, but I definitely think their percentage is drastically exaggerated by Northern Chinese posters like uisashi and throway2. Having grown up in Beijing (when I was growing up in the 90's Beijing wasn't as cosmopolitan as it is now), I admit that I've met very few people with long and narrow faces, no matter what generation they belonged to.
TBH I don't think long-narrow faces are common anywhere in China or in the Asia-Pacific region. Mongoloids by default aren't narrow-faced.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 8, 2022 2:06:41 GMT
My experience with Shanxi people mostly came from my aunt's ex-husband, who was from Shanxi. My aunt was born in 1960 and her ex-husband was probably around the same age. The man didn't give me any narrow impressions, he was quite robust and had a wide face. I'm not denying that there are long-narrow faced individuals among older generations of Northern Chinese, but I definitely think their percentage is drastically exaggerated by Northern Chinese posters like uisashi and throway2. Having grown up in Beijing (when I was growing up in the 90's Beijing wasn't as cosmopolitan as it is now), I admit that I've met very few people with long and narrow faces, no matter what generation they belonged to. Lol I have a complex ancestry but its actually ~5/8 southern (though my entire immediate family lives in Shanxi and northwest China) 1960-born Shanxi people esp. urban can be wide faced often, though people born before that are mostly long/narrow faced
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 8, 2022 2:10:22 GMT
Bulk street Beijing types in the turn of 1900 were long narrow faced. I have the impression based on older student pictures that they were narrow faced in the past, but their face got shorter and wider sometime in the 2000s. I suspect current generation young north Chinese in urban areas are overfed and have a very sedentary lifestyle, leading to phenotype changes. It would also explain why northern ABCs and old gen north Chinese (both groups don't overfeed), are generally narrow faced
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jul 8, 2022 6:03:00 GMT
Alright I gathered an albumn of wanted Guangxi criminals, mostly from west/south Guangxi and most are of Han descent. Some of my immediate thoughts. 1. There is a distinct Guangxi look; this distinct eye area, this distinct cheekbone shape and in general many do diverge a lot from plains Han. 2. Guangxi is probably smaller faced than bulk Chinese Han, but their "facial growth" is not low. Their chin/jaw generally takes up more of their face, with a smaller/shorter midface. 3. Some amount of people here have low facial harmony compared to e.g Canto Abcs. I suspect their poor facial harmony is caused by poor nutrition/lifestyle as children. 4. Most criminals are facially more grown and robust than say top HS students due to lifestyle divergence; the former oftentimes do physical work as kids while the later oftentimes lead some extreme sedentary stunted lifestyle. 5. Guangxi seems to share structural continuitiy with Khmers and Austroasiatic. Some amount look South Asian shifted. imgur.com/a/EnSFgNTI'm struck by how West Eurasian-influenced some of them look, which is due to having lighter skin and brown-grey colored eyes. 8, 21, and 24 are the only ones that strike me as having a South Asian or Uyghur vibe. 19 has this deeper set eyes (but distinctly East Eurasian) look I specifically associate with Austroasiatic populations. 28 has this eye shape/region that reminds me of Charlie Soong (宋嘉澍). A lot of them have a Khmer vibe that you don't really see with Vietnamese or with Guangdong Yue-speakers.
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jul 8, 2022 8:59:25 GMT
Alright I gathered an albumn of wanted Guangxi criminals, mostly from west/south Guangxi and most are of Han descent. Some of my immediate thoughts. 1. There is a distinct Guangxi look; this distinct eye area, this distinct cheekbone shape and in general many do diverge a lot from plains Han. 2. Guangxi is probably smaller faced than bulk Chinese Han, but their "facial growth" is not low. Their chin/jaw generally takes up more of their face, with a smaller/shorter midface. 3. Some amount of people here have low facial harmony compared to e.g Canto Abcs. I suspect their poor facial harmony is caused by poor nutrition/lifestyle as children. 4. Most criminals are facially more grown and robust than say top HS students due to lifestyle divergence; the former oftentimes do physical work as kids while the later oftentimes lead some extreme sedentary stunted lifestyle. 5. Guangxi seems to share structural continuitiy with Khmers and Austroasiatic. Some amount look South Asian shifted. imgur.com/a/EnSFgNTThere is a very strong overlap with SE Asians among these individuals. Many can pass easily in Indochina/mainland SE Asia and maybe also Philippines and Indonesia. Some even reminds me of ethnic Chinese Thais or Thais with Chinese admixture (they don't identify as Chinese but still have Han blood). Number 2 and 35 looks the most Khmer. Meanwhile Number 19 looks very Thai to me. 9, 13, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 24, 32, 35, 38, 39, 40, 42 also looks very SE Asian with 24 and 39 reminds me of some lighter skinned Indonesians. 8, 17, 24, 35, 39 looks the most Indian and Western Eurasian admixed to me. I'm quite surprised, you don't seen these looks as much among Viets.
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Jul 8, 2022 9:06:34 GMT
Alright I gathered an albumn of wanted Guangxi criminals, mostly from west/south Guangxi and most are of Han descent. Some of my immediate thoughts. 1. There is a distinct Guangxi look; this distinct eye area, this distinct cheekbone shape and in general many do diverge a lot from plains Han. 2. Guangxi is probably smaller faced than bulk Chinese Han, but their "facial growth" is not low. Their chin/jaw generally takes up more of their face, with a smaller/shorter midface. 3. Some amount of people here have low facial harmony compared to e.g Canto Abcs. I suspect their poor facial harmony is caused by poor nutrition/lifestyle as children. 4. Most criminals are facially more grown and robust than say top HS students due to lifestyle divergence; the former oftentimes do physical work as kids while the later oftentimes lead some extreme sedentary stunted lifestyle. 5. Guangxi seems to share structural continuitiy with Khmers and Austroasiatic. Some amount look South Asian shifted. imgur.com/a/EnSFgNTI'm struck by how West Eurasian-influenced some of them look, which is due to having lighter skin and brown-grey colored eyes. 8, 21, and 24 are the only ones that strike me as having a South Asian or Uyghur vibe. 19 has this deeper set eyes (but distinctly East Eurasian) look I specifically associate with Austroasiatic populations. 28 has this eye shape/region that reminds me of Charlie Soong (宋嘉澍). A lot of them have a Khmer vibe that you don't really see with Vietnamese or with Guangdong Yue-speakers. They have very strong overlap with SE Asians imo. Many can pass easily in Indochina and even in parts of Maritime SE Asia. It's interesting indeed how West Eurasian and South Asian influenced some of them can look. . I heard that the Vietnamese are even more northern-shifted genetically than Guangxi folks despite being located more southern. True a lot of have this Khmer or Austroasiatic look, although there are some Viets who can look like this as well such as Cung Le, Truong The Vinh, Kyle Le, etc.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 8, 2022 12:54:38 GMT
Alright I gathered an albumn of wanted Guangxi criminals, mostly from west/south Guangxi and most are of Han descent. Some of my immediate thoughts. 1. There is a distinct Guangxi look; this distinct eye area, this distinct cheekbone shape and in general many do diverge a lot from plains Han. 2. Guangxi is probably smaller faced than bulk Chinese Han, but their "facial growth" is not low. Their chin/jaw generally takes up more of their face, with a smaller/shorter midface. 3. Some amount of people here have low facial harmony compared to e.g Canto Abcs. I suspect their poor facial harmony is caused by poor nutrition/lifestyle as children. 4. Most criminals are facially more grown and robust than say top HS students due to lifestyle divergence; the former oftentimes do physical work as kids while the later oftentimes lead some extreme sedentary stunted lifestyle. 5. Guangxi seems to share structural continuitiy with Khmers and Austroasiatic. Some amount look South Asian shifted. imgur.com/a/EnSFgNTThere is a very strong overlap with SE Asians among these individuals. Many can pass easily in Indochina/mainland SE Asia and maybe also Philippines and Indonesia. Some even reminds me of ethnic Chinese Thais or Thais with Chinese admixture (they don't identify as Chinese but still have Han blood). Number 2 and 35 looks the most Khmer. Meanwhile Number 19 looks very Thai to me. 9, 13, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 24, 32, 35, 38, 39, 40, 42 also looks very SE Asian with 24 and 39 reminds me of some lighter skinned Indonesians. 8, 17, 24, 35, 39 looks the most Indian and Western Eurasian admixed to me. I'm quite surprised, you don't seen these looks as much among Viets. I think I've mentioned many times on Anthroscape that folks from Western GD and GX have a strong overlap with SE Asians, not only with mainland SE Asians but sometimes also with insular or maritime ones as well. At that time nobody believed me. But now you know. Yes a lot of them indeed have a strong overlap with SE Asians, and some of them also look South Asian influenced. I believe Lingnan people have some Vietnam Neolithic and Laos Bronze Age components judging by the G25 charts that I've seen before, maybe that's where those looks come from.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 8, 2022 16:40:02 GMT
Alright I gathered an albumn of wanted Guangxi criminals, mostly from west/south Guangxi and most are of Han descent. Some of my immediate thoughts. 1. There is a distinct Guangxi look; this distinct eye area, this distinct cheekbone shape and in general many do diverge a lot from plains Han. 2. Guangxi is probably smaller faced than bulk Chinese Han, but their "facial growth" is not low. Their chin/jaw generally takes up more of their face, with a smaller/shorter midface. 3. Some amount of people here have low facial harmony compared to e.g Canto Abcs. I suspect their poor facial harmony is caused by poor nutrition/lifestyle as children. 4. Most criminals are facially more grown and robust than say top HS students due to lifestyle divergence; the former oftentimes do physical work as kids while the later oftentimes lead some extreme sedentary stunted lifestyle. 5. Guangxi seems to share structural continuitiy with Khmers and Austroasiatic. Some amount look South Asian shifted. imgur.com/a/EnSFgNTthere may be strong structural similarities (not that they look exactly the same) to certain Khalkha Mongols This becomes evident if you compare forehead width, cheekbone shape, and midface length imgur.com/a/z5lX67TFor example, this guy. From my recollections of Ulaanbaatar Tinder (I spoofed myself with a fake profile there to look at phenotypes) among young, in-shape males such phenos aren't that rare
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 8, 2022 23:29:08 GMT
Alright I gathered an albumn of wanted Guangxi criminals, mostly from west/south Guangxi and most are of Han descent. Some of my immediate thoughts. 1. There is a distinct Guangxi look; this distinct eye area, this distinct cheekbone shape and in general many do diverge a lot from plains Han. 2. Guangxi is probably smaller faced than bulk Chinese Han, but their "facial growth" is not low. Their chin/jaw generally takes up more of their face, with a smaller/shorter midface. 3. Some amount of people here have low facial harmony compared to e.g Canto Abcs. I suspect their poor facial harmony is caused by poor nutrition/lifestyle as children. 4. Most criminals are facially more grown and robust than say top HS students due to lifestyle divergence; the former oftentimes do physical work as kids while the later oftentimes lead some extreme sedentary stunted lifestyle. 5. Guangxi seems to share structural continuitiy with Khmers and Austroasiatic. Some amount look South Asian shifted. imgur.com/a/EnSFgNTthere may be strong structural similarities (not that they look exactly the same) to certain Khalkha Mongols This becomes evident if you compare forehead width, cheekbone shape, and midface length imgur.com/a/z5lX67TFor example, this guy. From my recollections of Ulaanbaatar Tinder (I spoofed myself with a fake profile there to look at phenotypes) among young, in-shape males such phenos aren't that rare I must say that this thread has been well trolled by you. Really you lack basic knowledge on anthropology. Okarina and uisashi sometimes troll as well, but most of the times what they're saying does make some sense, whereas what you said doesn't make sense at all. There's no way that Khalkha Mongols look similar to Far South Chinese and SE Asians, since there're multiple key differences in terms of their facial features. Khalkha Mongols have a typical northern appearance, which is 高眶高面 in Chinese terms, which can be translated as having brow ridges set further apart from the eyes, and also having a greater facial length. On the contrary, Far South Chinese and SE Asians are typically 低眶低面, which means their brow ridges are usually set rather close to the eyes, and they generally have a smaller facial length. To sum it up, Khalkha Mongols have genuinely large faces both in terms of length and width, whereas Far South Chinese and SE Asians have small faces both in terms of length and width. And their facial proportions are different as well. Khalkha Mongols like other northern Asians have a smaller forehead area and the facial features (eyes, nose, and mouth) are dispersed evenly on the whole face, whereas Far South Chinese and SE Asians have a larger forehead area that covers the upper 1/3 of their face and their facial features are clustered tightly on the bottom 2/3 of the face. Of course like every generalization there ought to be a few exceptions, but it's undeniable that such generalizations do apply to the majority of people with ancestry from the respective regions. The only similarity between Khalkha Mongols and SE Asians that I can think of is that compared to core East Asians like Northern Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese, both have some West Eurasian elements (though their West Eurasian elements are likely from different sources as well). But other than that there's no similarity at all, neither in terms of culture nor language and nor genetics or appearance. Please stop making absurd claims that lack basic common sense. And amongst all East and SE Asians, Northern Chinese are definitely the most similar to Khalkha Mongols in terms of appearance, genes, and maybe even culture as well. I found it funny that some Northern Chinese posters like you (I've encountered a few similar ones on Tieba and Zhihu as well) keep pushing the Mongols to the south as if they were some undesirable creatures that need to be kept far away from the premises of Northern China. Whether you hate them or not, you still need to accept the obvious fact that they're much closer to Northern Chinese than to Far South Chinese and SE Asians. Really please stop trolling in my thread, this is a warning to you.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 9, 2022 0:09:57 GMT
I must say that this thread has been well trolled by you. Really you lack basic knowledge on anthropology. Okarina and uisashi sometimes troll as well, but most of the times what they're saying does make some sense, whereas what you said doesn't make sense at all. There's no way that Khalkha Mongols look similar to Far South Chinese and SE Asians, since there're multiple key differences in terms of their facial features. Khalkha Mongols have a typical northern appearance, which is 高眶高面 in Chinese terms, which can be translated as having brow ridges set further apart from the eyes, and also having a greater facial length. On the contrary, Far South Chinese and SE Asians are typically 低眶低面, which means their brow ridges are usually set rather close to the eyes, and they generally have a smaller facial length. To sum it up, Khalkha Mongols have genuinely large faces both in terms of length and width, whereas Far South Chinese and SE Asians have small faces both in terms of length and width. And their facial proportions are different as well. Khalkha Mongols like other northern Asians have a smaller forehead area and the facial features (eyes, nose, and mouth) are dispersed evenly on the whole face, whereas Far South Chinese and SE Asians have a larger forehead area that covers the upper 1/3 of their face and their facial features are clustered tightly on the bottom 2/3 of the face. Of course like every generalization there ought to be a few exceptions, but it's undeniable that such generalizations do apply to the majority of people with ancestry from the respective regions. The only similarity between Khalkha Mongols and SE Asians that I can think of is that compared to core East Asians like Northern Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese, both have some West Eurasian elements (though their West Eurasian elements are likely from different sources as well). But other than that there's no similarity at all, neither in terms of culture nor language and nor genetics or appearance. Please stop making absurd claims that lack basic common sense. And amongst all East and SE Asians, Northern Chinese are definitely the most similar to Khalkha Mongols in terms of appearance, genes, and maybe even culture as well. I found it funny that some Northern Chinese posters like you (I've encountered a few similar ones on Tieba and Zhihu as well) keep pushing the Mongols to the south as if they were some undesirable creatures that need to be kept far away from the premises of Northern China. Whether you hate them or not, you still need to accept the obvious fact that they're much closer to Northern Chinese than to Far South Chinese and SE Asians. Really please stop trolling in my thread, this is a warning to you. To explain what I am trying to do here- I do not think that phenotype aligns strictly on some arbitrary north-south axis. Perhaps in China it roughly does (going from a Tibeto-Burman-esque look to various SEA as a result of very recent migrations) but this cline does not apply to more distant groups like Mongols. What you think a "northern" face is seems rather northeastern Chinese in particular (not even the most genetically "northern" Chinese group), as Mongols do not even seem to have foreheads that small. In fact, their foreheads are often wide. Using some north-south axis to say "X pheno should look like this because it is more "northern"/"southern" is a fallacy because you can simply observe X pheno directly. This is a common problem I see on Chinese language sites and I don't think it should propagate further. Another problem I see is some sort of attachment of "northernness" with masculinity/robustness and "southernness" with femininity/gracileness as a result of soft power affecting perceptions. I think this does a disservice to southern males and its objectivity ought to be questioned. For instance, Mongols project masculinity and robustness because they are associated with Bokh wrestling, but whether the average Mongol teen is more masculine and robust than say, your average Cantonese-American is another question.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 9, 2022 0:45:18 GMT
I must say that this thread has been well trolled by you. Really you lack basic knowledge on anthropology. Okarina and uisashi sometimes troll as well, but most of the times what they're saying does make some sense, whereas what you said doesn't make sense at all. There's no way that Khalkha Mongols look similar to Far South Chinese and SE Asians, since there're multiple key differences in terms of their facial features. Khalkha Mongols have a typical northern appearance, which is 高眶高面 in Chinese terms, which can be translated as having brow ridges set further apart from the eyes, and also having a greater facial length. On the contrary, Far South Chinese and SE Asians are typically 低眶低面, which means their brow ridges are usually set rather close to the eyes, and they generally have a smaller facial length. To sum it up, Khalkha Mongols have genuinely large faces both in terms of length and width, whereas Far South Chinese and SE Asians have small faces both in terms of length and width. And their facial proportions are different as well. Khalkha Mongols like other northern Asians have a smaller forehead area and the facial features (eyes, nose, and mouth) are dispersed evenly on the whole face, whereas Far South Chinese and SE Asians have a larger forehead area that covers the upper 1/3 of their face and their facial features are clustered tightly on the bottom 2/3 of the face. Of course like every generalization there ought to be a few exceptions, but it's undeniable that such generalizations do apply to the majority of people with ancestry from the respective regions. The only similarity between Khalkha Mongols and SE Asians that I can think of is that compared to core East Asians like Northern Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese, both have some West Eurasian elements (though their West Eurasian elements are likely from different sources as well). But other than that there's no similarity at all, neither in terms of culture nor language and nor genetics or appearance. Please stop making absurd claims that lack basic common sense. And amongst all East and SE Asians, Northern Chinese are definitely the most similar to Khalkha Mongols in terms of appearance, genes, and maybe even culture as well. I found it funny that some Northern Chinese posters like you (I've encountered a few similar ones on Tieba and Zhihu as well) keep pushing the Mongols to the south as if they were some undesirable creatures that need to be kept far away from the premises of Northern China. Whether you hate them or not, you still need to accept the obvious fact that they're much closer to Northern Chinese than to Far South Chinese and SE Asians. Really please stop trolling in my thread, this is a warning to you. To explain what I am trying to do here- I do not think that phenotype aligns strictly on some arbitrary north-south axis. Perhaps in China it roughly does (going from a Tibeto-Burman-esque look to various SEA as a result of very recent migrations) but this cline does not apply to more distant groups like Mongols. What you think a "northern" face is seems rather northeastern Chinese in particular (not even the most genetically "northern" Chinese group), as Mongols do not even seem to have foreheads that small. In fact, their foreheads are often wide. Using some north-south axis to say "X pheno should look like this because it is more "northern"/"southern" is a fallacy because you can simply observe X pheno directly. This is a common problem I see on Chinese language sites and I don't think it should propagate further. Another problem I see is some sort of attachment of "northernness" with masculinity/robustness and "southernness" with femininity/gracileness as a result of soft power affecting perceptions. I think this does a disservice to southern males and its objectivity ought to be questioned. For instance, Mongols project masculinity and robustness because they are associated with Bokh wrestling, but whether the average Mongol teen is more masculine and robust than say, your average Cantonese-American is another question. Phenotype most of the times does ally rather strictly to a north-south axis at least in the Asia-Pacific region. I've seen Chinese from nearly all regions and I've also seen many SE Asians as well, and yes there's definitely an obvious north-to-south cline. To deny this is tantamount to lying. And I've never attached any connotation of masculinity/robustness to northern phenotype and femininity/gracileness to southern phenotype, stop putting words into my mouth. For instance Buakaw Banchamek is hyper masculine yet nobody would ever deny that he looks very southern and very typical of SE Asia. And also I don't think masculinity is necessarily associated with robustness and femininity is necessarily associated to gracileness. No it doesn't work this way in the real world. For me masculinity and femininity largely depend on what one says and what one does instead of what one looks like. A person can be gracile and masculine at the same time. And neither Cantonese Americans nor Cantonese from HK can represent all Cantonese, at most they could only represent a particular subset of Cantonese.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 9, 2022 0:46:45 GMT
Do Mongols even have a small forehead or a big distance between eyes and eyebrows? Mongols seem to often have this big round forehead and their eyes seem lowbrow + more sunken than bulk Han Chinese. I agree that many Mongols seem to pass better in say Hunan than Shanxi for some reason (narrow faced Loess farmer phenotype seems non-existent in Mongolia). I don't think Mongols look FSC nor do I think Throw suggested that, but I do think that Mongols aren't actually that similar to northern Chinese or Koreans in appearance oftentimes.
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