shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 26, 2023 17:16:23 GMT
imgur.com/a/w89SIxumnopsc1b shirvanshah Here is a compilation of selected kids from Taiyuan, Shanxi. I believe they fit a specific type found in Shanxi that IMO aligns with certain Cantos and some SEAs (eg. northern Thais?), but also does not look "Austroasiatic" or "Austronesian". A lot of Shanxi people (especially more north or west of them) look more Tibetoburman and distinct, but this type actually quite commonly shows up. How do you perceive them? shirvanshah Can they pass in Thailand at all? Including Chinese-admixed Thais (I perceive some of these types as potentially overlapping with Cantonese/Fujianese) Yes they can pass mostly as ethnic Chinese or assimilated Sino admixed Thais. Maybe can blend in among some Hmong or even Akha in the mountains as well. Last student look sort of Hapa-ish in that picture. Do you have another image of him? Maybe some minor Steppe-related Western affinity?
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Apr 26, 2023 17:16:33 GMT
View AttachmentView AttachmentOk these two Western Guangdong types do look somewhat similar to your Far South idealized type, but I'm not sure if they are necessarily more "native" than say this guy to that region. Imo I find them more Paniya/Onge while the bottom guy looks closer to a pure Austroasiatic. View Attachment The bottom guy looks more Sichuan or Hubei-ish whereas the top two guys look more distinctively Far South Chinese as having a Daic or Austronesian influenced appearance. From a phenotype POV, I'd say that the top two guys look more native than the bottom guy. And the bottom guy doesn't look Austroasiatic at all, he looks more Hmong-Mien or Central Chinese. The bottom guy reminds me somewhat of the Chinese soccer player Yang Liyu, who is of Chongqing origin. I can see the two being more "distinctively" far south Chinese but I'm not sure at this point if they are necessarily more native than the other guy.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 26, 2023 17:17:37 GMT
Ok an addendum now- looking through images of chiang mai thais, they dont seem to pass well as northwest Han. Laotians and southern Viets seem to pass better (?) I will have to look at southern Thais now Really? Interesting because Chiang Mai Thais actually look like Laotians and Southern Viets in phenotypes (all three groups are genetically primarily Tai-Kradai). Could you send me some representative pics of Chiang Mai thais? Additionally, could you send me pics of Thais from Issan? I would like to see if there are any differences. From the students I reviewed, I found them to look somewhat structurally different from Laotians and Viet-Americans (predominately southern Viet), though their skintone might have been even lighter than them to some extent. But we can’t use that as the only factor.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 26, 2023 17:20:18 GMT
imgur.com/a/KV1itntBoth of the male athletes from the Laotian olympic team in 2020. For some reason, Laos seems to have a higher rate of these types than NW Thailand?
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 26, 2023 17:23:09 GMT
Again, when people refer to Austronesians they're referring to the actual Austronesians and not some long extinct Paleolithic or Early Neolithic side branch.
The actual Austronesians most likely originated from Southeast or Far South China, and we do have genetic and archaeological evidence to prove this, such as the Liangdao and Qihe samples.
Genetically speaking, the actual or extant Austronesians aren't northern shifted at all, instead they're located at the southern end of the East Eurasian cline and are the purest Southern East Asians. All others including Austroasiatic, Tai-Kradai, and Hmong-Mien are somewhat more northern-shifted, with Hmong-Mien and certain Austroasiatic tribes having strong Tibeto-Burman influences.
To find more authentic Austroasiatic appearances you'd have to search in SE Asia and not in China. The Katuic, Mon-Khmer, and Bahnar peoples of SE Asia are better representatives of Austroasiatic than Wa. The isolated Austroasiatic Nicobarese people would work as well.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 26, 2023 17:26:16 GMT
Again, when people refer to Austronesians they're referring to the actual Austronesians and not some long extinct Paleolithic or Early Neolithic side branch. The actual Austronesians most likely originated from Southeast or Far South China, and we do have genetic and archaeological evidence to prove this, such as the Liangdao and Qihe samples. Genetically speaking, the actual or extant Austronesians aren't northern shifted at all, instead they're located at the southern end of the East Eurasian cline and are the purest Southern East Asians. All others including Austroasiatic, Tai-Kradai, and Hmong-Mien are somewhat more northern-shifted, with Hmong-Mien and certain Austroasiatic tribes having strong Tibeto-Burman influences. To find more authentic Austroasiatic appearances you'd have to search in SE Asia and not in China. The Katuic, Mon-Khmer, and Bahnar peoples of SE Asia are better representatives of Austroasiatic than Wa. The isolated Austroasiatic Nicobarese people would work as well. Liangdao??? Liangdao and Austronesian should not be placed in the same sentence… if you can’t figure out why this is, you shouldn’t be speaking on the subject of Austronesians. BTW the Liangdao skulls are morphologically quite similar to a specific Yayoi skull type I have found, which might correlate to certain modern Fujianese phenos.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 26, 2023 17:31:10 GMT
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 26, 2023 17:31:22 GMT
Liangdao and modern Austronesian samples are indeed clustered very close together on PCA charts, to deny this is tantamount to lying.
Plus the Liangdao samples have mt-haplogroups R9 and E, both are fairly common among modern Austronesians.
And I've never heard anything about Liangdao skulls resembling Yayoi ones.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 26, 2023 17:36:44 GMT
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 26, 2023 17:43:09 GMT
“Northern shifted” phenos like these are actually fairly common among Filipino-Americans, which align with bulk Taiwanese aborigines imgur.com/a/AWwNcIh Even more “southern shifted”/visibly Onge-shifted phenos like this have a distinct Austronesian skull/eye shape imgur.com/a/vDbO0CzWhich, if you look closely is in the direction of certain Jiangsu or even Shandong people
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 26, 2023 17:43:38 GMT
Really? Interesting because Chiang Mai Thais actually look like Laotians and Southern Viets in phenotypes (all three groups are genetically primarily Tai-Kradai). Could you send me some representative pics of Chiang Mai thais? Additionally, could you send me pics of Thais from Issan? I would like to see if there are any differences. From the students I reviewed, I found them to look somewhat structurally different from Laotians and Viet-Americans (predominately southern Viet), though their skintone might have been even lighter than them to some extent. But we can’t use that as the only factor. It can be challenging as I don't live there (am in Bangkok) and hardly ever visited or know anyone from there. But I will try to find some. Forget to mention that Chiang Mai (the city) would not be a good representative for the overall Northern Thai phenotype as it pretty cosmopolitan place being the second largest city by population in Thailand and thus have many recent migrants from other parts of the country including even some Indians, Muslims and Chinese. If you are referring to the overall Chiang Mai Province (huge province), then that would more representative. If you want representative of Northern Thais, I would suggested Chiang Rai, Phayao, Nan, Lampang ppl as those places are mostly locals and have much less recent migration than other regions of Thailand. Will try to find pics of Thais from Isaan. Keep in mind though, there are some variations in Isaan as well. Northern and some parts of Central Isaan folks look more Tai-Kadai similar to Laotians and Viets while those from Southern and other parts of Central Isaan have much darker skin and look Austroasiatic similar to Buakaw and locals from Central-Eastern Thailand (mostly Mon and Khmer genetically speaking).
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 26, 2023 17:43:45 GMT
Photos of Bahnar peoples, to me they look just like regular SE Asians and don't resemble Mongols at all. There’s a bunch of these big cheekbone pseudo-Mongol types if you zoom in to your second and third pics
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Apr 26, 2023 17:46:47 GMT
Last warning to uisashi and throway2
Stop trolling in my thread, you guys aren't welcomed here
If you want to make far-fetched claims you can start your own threads, stop polluting my thread
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shirvanshah
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Post by shirvanshah on Apr 26, 2023 18:10:35 GMT
Really? Interesting because Chiang Mai Thais actually look like Laotians and Southern Viets in phenotypes (all three groups are genetically primarily Tai-Kradai). Could you send me some representative pics of Chiang Mai thais? Additionally, could you send me pics of Thais from Issan? I would like to see if there are any differences. From the students I reviewed, I found them to look somewhat structurally different from Laotians and Viet-Americans (predominately southern Viet), though their skintone might have been even lighter than them to some extent. But we can’t use that as the only factor. Btw if you want to search for pics of Northern Thais online by your own means, I surmise anwyhere from Chiang Rai to as west as Mae Hong Son or down south as far northern parts of Sukhothai and Uttaradit aka former Lanna Kingdom (except Chiang Mai city, the other districts of the Chiang Mai Province should be fine as there should be less migrants than the main district/city area). But keep in mind, many of pics you see online might be hill tribe minorities rather than the main Northern Thai/Khon Mueang group (although it can get complicated as there are many other Tai-Kadai minorities in the North such as Tai Lue, Yong, Khuen, Shan/Tai Yai as well). If you travel south of that specific region to Phitsanulok and central, southern parts of Uttaradit and Sukhothai and downwards, the general populace will have darker skin and look much more Austroasiatic similar to Central-Eastern Thais and Southen Isaan locals. Only exception is several parts of Tak Province, which is located more west than north including Umphang (southernmost district) as there were historical migrations from Northern region. So a lot there are actually Northern Thai by origin and look as such despite not being geographically located in the north. When I was traveling with my family in Nan Province, I was shocked by the amount of overlap in phenotypes of the folks there and the Vietnamese. But later when we are returning home passing through Phitsanulok, I noticed the locals immediately look more like your generic tanned browner Siamese/Central-Eastern Thais, Khmers, Mons. Phitsanulok locals also speak a dialect of Central Thai and practice similar culture to Siamese/Central Thai rather than Northern Thailand, which has a different dialect/language and culture. Here is a map of the provinces btw: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Thailand_provinces_en.svg/1050px-Thailand_provinces_en.svg.png
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Apr 26, 2023 18:34:58 GMT
Could you send me some representative pics of Chiang Mai thais? Additionally, could you send me pics of Thais from Issan? I would like to see if there are any differences. From the students I reviewed, I found them to look somewhat structurally different from Laotians and Viet-Americans (predominately southern Viet), though their skintone might have been even lighter than them to some extent. But we can’t use that as the only factor. Btw if you want to search for pics of Northern Thais online by your own means, I surmise anwyhere from Chiang Rai to as west as Mae Hong Son or down south as far northern parts of Sukhothai and Uttaradit aka former Lanna Kingdom (except Chiang Mai city, the other districts of the Chiang Mai Province should be fine as there should be less migrants than the main district/city area). But keep in mind, many of pics you see online might be hill tribe minorities rather than the main Northern Thai/Khon Mueang group (although it can get complicated as there are many other Tai-Kadai minorities in the North such as Tai Lue, Yong, Khuen, Shan/Tai Yai as well). If you travel south of that specific region to Phitsanulok and central, southern parts of Uttaradit and Sukhothai and downwards, the general populace will have darker skin and look much more Austroasiatic similar to Central-Eastern Thais and Southen Isaan locals. Only exception is several parts of Tak Province, which is located more west than north including Umphang (southernmost district) as there were historical migrations from Northern region. So a lot there are actually Northern Thai by origin and look as such despite not being geographically located in the north. When I was traveling with my family in Nan Province, I was shocked by the amount of overlap in phenotypes of the folks there and the Vietnamese. But later when we are returning home passing through Phitsanulok, I noticed the locals immediately look more like your generic tanned browner Siamese/Central-Eastern Thais, Khmers, Mons. Phitsanulok locals also speak a dialect of Central Thai and practice similar culture to Siamese/Central Thai rather than Northern Thailand, which has a different dialect/language and culture. Here is a map of the provinces btw: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c5/Thailand_provinces_en.svg/1050px-Thailand_provinces_en.svg.pngI went through some people from Nan province listed on Wikipedia, and the passability in northwest Chinese is honestly incredibly high… they pass better than even some amount of Han Chinese groups, and a lot better than eg. eastern Guangdong people
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