uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 10, 2022 1:18:31 GMT
I'm convinced that there are many different groups of "Austronesians". Shandong/JP/KR have variants of Austronesians that differ to e.g southeast Chinese Austronesian.
I'm pretty convinced that the NEA/Dongbei phenotype, which has this oval face with close set eyes, sharp narrow nose and protruding eyes is actually influenced by a form of Austronesian, as those traits listed do not seem to appear on actual Tungids, who are typically wider of face and have flatter noses.
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 10, 2022 1:46:56 GMT
I'm convinced that there are many different groups of "Austronesians". Shandong/JP/KR have variants of Austronesians that differ to e.g southeast Chinese Austronesian. I'm pretty convinced that the NEA/Dongbei phenotype, which has this oval face with close set eyes, sharp narrow nose and protruding eyes is actually influenced by a form of Austronesian, as those traits listed do not seem to appear on actual Tungids, who are typically wider of face and have flatter noses. I doubt that any group of Austronesian has ever reached Dongbei.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 10, 2022 2:07:28 GMT
"Dongbei phenos" in the present are not native to the region, but they got there in the 19th century via Shandong farmers. East Shandong imo structurally has many types that looks like some type of Austronesian (big jaw, close set eyes, narrow nose and stocky body).
I'm suspecting that there is a "northern" variant of Austronesian and a "southern" variant of Austronesian.
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Post by okarinaofsteiner on Jul 10, 2022 18:53:53 GMT
I think most of us have a good idea of what Cantonese people look like...ones I see are split into several types. 1. Some narrow faced sharp nosed Tai pheno, usually with low facial fat and thin skin, possibly Tibetoburman influenced. 2. This wide short face type with wide cheekbones, looks similar to Khmer Viets. 3. Some Hunan looking type with round face. 4. Some South Asian shifted pheno. What is this Indian-like pheno you speak of? Edward Leung from CantoMando kind of fits the bill although I think he's more of your type 1 (the Andy Lau look) Actually Eugene Yip from Singaporean acapella group MICapella might be an example of a #1 (vaguely Indian-shifted Canto look) This video shows the West Eurasian-shifted ness best IMO
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 11, 2022 0:29:33 GMT
"Dongbei phenos" in the present are not native to the region, but they got there in the 19th century via Shandong farmers. East Shandong imo structurally has many types that looks like some type of Austronesian (big jaw, close set eyes, narrow nose and stocky body). I'm suspecting that there is a "northern" variant of Austronesian and a "southern" variant of Austronesian. Dongbei people didn't all originate from Shandong, a significant amount of them also came from Hebei. I really don't think the type you described fits my impressions of Austronesians. The physical features of Austronesians from maritime SE Asia look very similar to neighboring Austroasiatic and Daic peoples, and have also been influenced by the native Negrito populations to various degrees. Only the Polynesians can match or even surpass the level of robustness of Northeast Asians, but they have around 30% Melanesian admixtures. And there's no solid evidence to prove that Austronesians were once present in Northern China during the Neolithic. Neolithic Shandong and Neolithic Henan were quite northern-shifted in fact, and were further northern-shifted than many Northern Chinese today. Here's the result of a Yangshao sample from roughly 6,000 years ago when plotted into MyHeritage DNA
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 11, 2022 9:31:44 GMT
Austronesian is clearly a decent chunk of the DNA of modern northern Han, Japanese and Koreans based on Gedmatch. They just have less of it compared to southern Han, but it doesn't mean it's not there.
Austronesian people like what the others said, are not physically nor facially gracile. Their jaws are bigger and squarer than Tungid jaws with wider shoulders, thicker limbs/joints and are more fast twitch in muscle movements. I've been to Malaysia and the most common phenotype of the locals is some short but widebuilt Austronesian phenotype, with big protruding eyes and large square chin. Imo, there is some overlap between them and Japanese, who are also clearly Austronesian shifted for some of them.
Most East Asians honestly have more affinity to Austronesian groups than many northern/Tungid groups in my opinion. The "Huanghoid" phenotype, which should be called "Shandongoid", has clear structural similarity to certain Austronesian groups rather than Tungids. Namely, their close set protruding eyes, squared jaw shape, stocky limbs and convex nose shape.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 11, 2022 12:26:27 GMT
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 11, 2022 12:45:32 GMT
Austronesian is clearly a decent chunk of the DNA of modern northern Han, Japanese and Koreans based on Gedmatch. They just have less of it compared to southern Han, but it doesn't mean it's not there. Austronesian people like what the others said, are not physically nor facially gracile. Their jaws are bigger and squarer than Tungid jaws with wider shoulders, thicker limbs/joints and are more fast twitch in muscle movements. I've been to Malaysia and the most common phenotype of the locals is some short but widebuilt Austronesian phenotype, with big protruding eyes and large square chin. Imo, there is some overlap between them and Japanese, who are also clearly Austronesian shifted for some of them. Most East Asians honestly have more affinity to Austronesian groups than many northern/Tungid groups in my opinion. The "Huanghoid" phenotype, which should be called "Shandongoid", has clear structural similarity to certain Austronesian groups rather than Tungids. Namely, their close set protruding eyes, squared jaw shape, stocky limbs and convex nose shape. AFAIK, Austronesian only accounts for around 10% of the genome of modern Northern Han, Korean, and Japanese, and I wouldn't call that "a decent chunk". I haven't seen that many Malaysians, but I've seen a lot of Filipinos and they really don't give me robust impressions. I've heard there're a lot of Hokkiens in Malaysia, so maybe what you're describing is a Chinese-influenced phenotype? I think Northern Chinese have a lot more affinity to Inner Mongolians and Manchus than to Austronesians.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 11, 2022 14:56:53 GMT
I haven't seen that many Malaysians, but I've seen a lot of Filipinos and they really don't give me robust impressions. I've heard there're a lot of Hokkiens in Malaysia, so maybe what you're describing is a Chinese-influenced phenotype? Hokkiens are probably physically robust because of Austronesian admixture, rather than the reverse These Filipino men aren't bloated/obese like some Polynesians, but you can still see how muscular/broad they are despite many Filipinos possibly being malnourished and not having access to top-tier gym facilities
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mnopsc1b
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Laureate of Rice Agricultures
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 12, 2022 0:45:33 GMT
I haven't seen that many Malaysians, but I've seen a lot of Filipinos and they really don't give me robust impressions. I've heard there're a lot of Hokkiens in Malaysia, so maybe what you're describing is a Chinese-influenced phenotype? Hokkiens are probably physically robust because of Austronesian admixture, rather than the reverse These Filipino men aren't bloated/obese like some Polynesians, but you can still see how muscular/broad they are despite many Filipinos possibly being malnourished and not having access to top-tier gym facilities Considering that Hokkiens have upwards of 25% to 30% Northern Han according to Wegene, I think their robustness mostly came from northern Sinitic people rather than Austronesians. You seem to have trouble distinguishing between "muscular" and "robust". I don't deny that these Filipino men are muscular (in fact I feel that FSC and SE Asian men generally have an easier time training to get muscles than Northern Chinese/Korean men due to their lower body fat), however I wouldn't consider them to be robust. To be robust one has to be tall and big-framed (think of someone like Dwayne Johnson who's half Polynesian half African American), which the men in your video clearly aren't. And plus another evidence against their robustness is that whereas there're many SE Asian boxers and MMA fighters in the light-weight levels, there're hardly any of them in the heavier levels, which is a sign that SE Asians no matter how muscular are still generally small-framed and lightly built. And your signature looks very funny. It's rather well-established that rice originated from the middle to lower reaches of the Yangtse and not from Shandong. And while rice and millet indeed spread south along the eastern Chinese coastline to Taiwan, Far South China, and SE Asia, there's absolutely no consensus or agreement that Austronesians originated from Shandong or surrounding areas of Northern China. In fact according to genetic evidence from Liangdao, Tanshishan, Qihe, etc., the progenitors of Austronesians were likely already in Fujian in the early Neolithic, and did not spread south from Shandong much later. And I find it even funnier that someone of Northwestern Chinese descent like you would desperately want to claim Austronesian ancestry. I mean uisashi claiming Austronesian ancestry is already quite weird, but at least he's on the fringes, whereas you lie completely outside. It would be much more logical for you to claim Tibeto-Burman or Mongol ancestry.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 12, 2022 1:44:10 GMT
Hokkiens are probably physically robust because of Austronesian admixture, rather than the reverse These Filipino men aren't bloated/obese like some Polynesians, but you can still see how muscular/broad they are despite many Filipinos possibly being malnourished and not having access to top-tier gym facilities Considering that Hokkiens have upwards of 25% to 30% Northern Han according to Wegene, I think their robustness mostly came from northern Sinitic people rather than Austronesians. You seem to have trouble distinguishing between "muscular" and "robust". I don't deny that these Filipino men are muscular (in fact I feel that FSC and SE Asian men generally have an easier time training to get muscles than Northern Chinese/Korean men due to their lower body fat), however I wouldn't consider them to be robust. To be robust one has to be tall and big-framed (think of someone like Dwayne Johnson who's half Polynesian half African American), which the men in your video clearly aren't. And plus another evidence against their robustness is that whereas there're many SE Asian boxers and MMA fighters in the light-weight levels, there're hardly any of them in the heavier levels, which is a sign that SE Asians no matter how muscular are still generally small-framed and lightly built. And your signature looks very funny. It's rather well-established that rice originated from the middle to lower reaches of the Yangtse and not from Shandong. And while rice and millet indeed spread south along the eastern Chinese coastline to Taiwan, Far South China, and SE Asia, there's absolutely no consensus or agreement that Austronesians originated from Shandong or surrounding areas of Northern China. In fact according to genetic evidence from Liangdao, Tanshishan, Qihe, etc., the progenitors of Austronesians were likely already in Fujian in the early Neolithic, and did not spread south from Shandong much later. And I find it even funnier that someone of Northwestern Chinese descent like you would desperately want to claim Austronesian ancestry. I mean uisashi claiming Austronesian ancestry is already quite weird, but at least he's on the fringes, whereas you lie completely outside. It would be much more logical for you to claim Tibeto-Burman or Mongol ancestry. I think I have said this multiple times in this thread already... but I have a complex ancestry (hence "mutt"). In fact, I am 3/8 Jiangsu which no one can deny is heavily Austronesian. I am willing to bet that if you measured the wrist thickness, shoulder width, etc. of well-fed Austronesians they would be on average larger than say Mongols. Look at the goddamn wrists/arms on these TW aborigines (go to about 6:31 where they start raising their fists). It would be difficult to find as consistent sequences of "tungid" populations (non-sportsmen- Bokh wrestlers are clearly outliers) who are nearly as robust as them. I don't think Austronesians are low fat at all either... In fact I'd say Filipino Americans are consistently among the chubbiest/high fat groups of Asian-Americans.
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 12, 2022 1:57:57 GMT
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throway2
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Post by throway2 on Jul 12, 2022 2:03:56 GMT
imgur.com/a/5TQNgkWHere's an image from a festival in Yakutia. Other than the few muscular people (who are folk wrestlers and obviously work out), everyone else is very thin and low fat. It is difficult to find groups of Austronesians who are as thin and low fat as they are.
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uisashi
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Post by uisashi on Jul 12, 2022 2:05:16 GMT
Who even came up with this Tungid/Mongol bigframed warrior stereotype? North Asians are generally slow twitch and worse at most conventional sports than East Asians.
Northwest Chinese and Shanxi, which is autosomally the most northern in China, has the worst sporting record. They also have long thin limbs and their build is naturally skinny, which in the context of East Asia, is actually a northern feature.
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mnopsc1b
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Post by mnopsc1b on Jul 12, 2022 4:32:19 GMT
Who even came up with this Tungid/Mongol bigframed warrior stereotype? North Asians are generally slow twitch and worse at most conventional sports than East Asians. Northwest Chinese and Shanxi, which is autosomally the most northern in China, has the worst sporting record. They also have long thin limbs and their build is naturally skinny, which in the context of East Asia, is actually a northern feature. Whatever dude, this debate is going nowhere and is getting more and more pointless. If you and throway2 want to believe that Northern Chinese and Mongols are the the thinnest, slimmest, and the most gracile in the world then go ahead with your daydreams, I won't stop you guys.
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